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Radiometric Dating – Creation Perspective

 

Creationists do admit that radioactive decay has occurred, but “it is important to understand the simple, fundamental principle behind all dating methods, and why they are not able to produce objective, absolute dates…The fatal flaw is that all scientific measurements are made in the present, whereas a date relates to a time in the past. We cannot go back into the past to measure all the parameters we need in order to do the dating calculation. Hence, all these parameters must be assumed—always. There is no other way.”[i] Naturalists still make assumptions even if they try to say that they don’t have to know initial conditions.

There are many assumptions that have to be made when using radiometric dating methods that might make these techniques unreliable. If any of these assumptions are wrong, then the reliability of the testing method can and should be put in question. The three main assumptions that affect the results of radiometric dating are: 1) the rate of decay has always been constant, 2) there has been no contamination (no movement of elements into or out of the object over time), and 3) we can determine how much daughter element there was to begin with.[ii]

There are many test results that make the reliability of these dating techniques very questionable.[iii] Naturalists try to explain these questionable results, but still can’t adequately explain them from their worldview.[iv] Evidence from “as far back as 1971” may show “that high pressure could increase decay rates very slightly for at least 14 isotopes.”[v] Naturalists even admit that radiocarbon dating does not work on living mussels because of the lack of new carbon in that environment. So what other situations and conditions create unreliable results that we must also throw out the dating because of?

In radiocarbon dating, there is limited precision and “given the way the atmospheric radiocarbon concentration has varied [based on tree ring dating results], there might be several possible ranges” of dates for the object being analyzed.[vi]

Plants and trees that are near volcanic areas appear older because the carbon they absorb will be older, from underground, and thus should have very little if any C-14. “The widespread emanation of 14C-free volcanogenic carbon dioxide after the Flood would have further inflated the carbon-14 dates of tree rings in a systematic manner in many parts of the world.”[vii] Naturalists have to assume whether wood remains were near volcanic vents or not. We would expect more volcanic activity due to the effects of the flood, naturalists would not expect or account for that.

There is also a lot of evidence that there is too much C-14 within supposedly old materials.[viii] C-14, which can’t last more than 100,000 years, has been found in coal, in oil, in fossils, in fossil wood, in diamonds, and even in deep strata where it should not exist.[ix] This evidence is above what naturalists can simply claim as contamination.

st-helens-crater

Crater at Mount St. Helens

Geologist Dr Steve Austin dated rocks from two lava flows in two different layers in the Grand Canyon and found the lower (older) rocks to be 270 million years younger than the higher (younger) rocks.[x] “A rock sample from the newly formed 1986 lava dome from Mount St. Helens was dated using Potassium-Argon dating. The newly formed rock gave ages for the different minerals in it of between 0.5 and 2.8 million years.” “Similar conflict was found by researchers in Hawaii. A lava flow which is known to have taken place in 1800-1801—less than 200 years ago—was dated by potassium-argon” as being around 1.5 million years old or more.[xi] 11 different rock samples were taken from 3 different eruptions (1949, 1954, 1975) of Mount Ngauruhoe in New Zealand and “the ‘ages’ of the rocks ranged from 0.27 to 3.5 million years old.”[xii] Also, “the less than 50-year-old lava flows at Mt. Ngauruhoe, New Zealand, yield a rubidium-strontium “age” of 133 million years, a samarium-neodymium “age” of 197 million years, and a uranium-lead “age” of 3.908 billion years!”[xiii] So if radiometric dating doesn’t even work on things of known age, is it reliable to determine accurate dates for things of unknown ages?

Different radiometric dating methods, on the same materials, often give very different results as evidenced by Mt. Ngauruhoe.[xiv] “The Grand Canyon was once dated at 6 million years, but recently scientists revised the date to 17 million years. A few weeks later, because of a different radiometric dating method using the phosphate mineral called apatite, scientists concluded that the last of the dinosaurs may have wandered around the canyon 65 million years ago.”[xv] “Rock samples brought back from the moon were tested and dated. Some were only millions of years old, while others were 28 billion years old.”[xvi]

“Conflicting radioactive dating results are reported all the time and, on their own, there is no way of knowing what they mean. So geologists research how other geologists have interpreted the other rocks in the area in order to find out what sort of dates they would expect. Then they invent a story to explain the numbers as part of the geological history of the area.”[xvii]

One evolutionary researcher said “For this complex, laboratory-based dating to be successful, the data must be compatible with the external field evidence.” In other words “you don’t just accept a laboratory date without question. It’s not the last word on the age of something. You only accept the date if it agrees with what you already think it should be.”[xviii]

A lot of radioactive decay does seem to be observed as evidenced by radiohalos and other marks. “For example, the radioactive decay of uranium in tiny crystals in a New Mexico granite yields a uranium-lead ‘age’ of 1.5 billion years. Yet the same uranium decay also produced abundant helium, but only 6,000 years worth of that helium was found to have leaked out of the tiny crystals.”[xix] Helium is created in radioactive decay reactions and should leak out of rocks rather quickly. “The data and our analysis show that over a billion years worth of nuclear decay has occurred very recently, between 4000 and 8000 years ago,”[xx] possibly at the time of the flood. “A period of accelerated decay would also solve the puzzle of the amount of heat emanating from the Earth—an amount consistent with the amount of radioactive decay that has occurred, but not with a billions of years timescale.”[xxi]

“Since 1955 the estimate for the age of the Earth has been based on the assumption that certain meteorite lead isotope ratios are equivalent to the primordial lead isotope ratios on Earth. In 1972 this assumption was shown to be highly questionable. Despite this, the momentum gained in the two decades prior to 1972 has made 4.5 b.y. a popularly accepted “universal constant” even though the foundations on which it was based have been virtually removed.”[xxii]

“Other data based on radioisotopes give estimates ranging from comparatively young ages to billions of years more than 4.6 billion years. There are dozens of natural chronometers based on the principle of uniformity (not accounting for a catastrophic flood) that give estimates for the age of the earth ranging from less than 10,000 years to millions of years. The majority of these chronometers give ages vastly younger than the presently accepted evolutionary age for the earth.”[xxiii]

Also, currently there is still a lot of radioactive material on the earth that “accounts for half of Earth’s heat.” So from an old earth view, there would have been a lot more radioactive material and thus more radiation and heat in the past. Would that higher dosage of radiation and heat have been harmful or helpful to evolution?[xxiv]

Naturalistic scientists have used many methods to try to figure out when the supernovae created the majority of uranium, and naturalists say “that the results from the various methods used are independently derived, making the age determinations that much more reliable. The blind spot in evolutionary thinking is the basic assumptions evolutionists make employing each method. Their strong bias for a very old universe causes them to make assumptions that will favor their bias.”

“Professor Richard Arculus assumes that 6.5 billion years ago supernovae created most of the uranium for our planet. He bases this on the belief that the earth is 4.5 billion years old and that the production ratio of U-235 and U-238 in a supernova is about 1.65. He says this is an oversimplification and concludes that about 10 supernovae from over 6 billion years ago to about 200 million years ago contributed to the uranium stores on earth to produce the unique ratio of U-235/U-238. It seems it is impossible to ever know what were the initial amounts of U-238 and Pb-206. The same is true for dating methods using other isotopes.”

In fact, if stars exploded and sent radioactive elements out into space, “this long period of interstellar residency would see the extinction of short and medium-lived isotopes, such as polonium since they would decay to lead long before reaching the earth.”

“The measured thorium and neodymium ratios of stars in our stellar neighborhood, if accepted at face value, strongly indicate that no significant amount of time has passed since the creation of these isotopes. Virtually all the initial thorium is still there, meaning not enough time has passed for significant decay of thorium. The spectroscopic evidence from 20 nearby stars presented by H. R. Butcher confirmed what Nobel physicist William Fowler advocated for many years: the universe was much younger than most astronomers accepted.”[xxv]

One researcher “explains that the U.S. Geological Survey used to have much younger uranium/lead ages accepted as correct. When older dates were obtained by a different way of measuring the ratio of lead and uranium, geologists decided the older dates were correct.” Scientists assumed that the rocks that appeared younger have lost some of the daughter isotope making them look younger. The fact that there are “too young” and “too old” results may indicate that the dating methods are not reliable.[xxvi]

The previous example goes against the typical naturalistic assumption that isotopes are locked within rocks, but are they? “Uranium, radium and lead salts are soluble in water. No one knows how much of each has been transported in or out of the rocks…Lead’s mobility increases with increased temperature and pressure…Gaseous argon can easily escape wherever microfractures exist in rock…In many cases the resulting dates are discordant due to loss of Lead or Uranium.”

Ultimately, there are many processes that give evidence that the Earth and the Universe are young, contrary to the “billions of years” models. The evidence is still interpreted based on many assumptions on both sides. Naturalists assume that the earth and universe have slowly, uniformly progressed over a long period of time. They think it has to have happened that way, and a motivating factor is that “the only alternative is special creation, and that is unthinkable.”[xxvii] Creationists assume that the earth and universe were created not that long ago and large catastrophes (like the flood) played a large role on radiometric dating. Creationists base their assumptions on the historical records of the Bible.

 

What the Bible Says: Gen 1:1

 

By Brian Mariani and others

Before commenting, please read the following disclosures.

Any offensive language will automatically disqualify your comment for publication, even if the arguments contained are good. Please comment on the ideas that are presented and not the presenter.  If your comment becomes an ad hominem argument and does not substantially address the issue, your comment will be disqualified as well.  We are looking for real arguments, not fallacious ones, so that we can present and challenge opposing ideas and arguments as they are truly believed by evolutionists.  We do not want to tear down straw men as well as you do not want to be misrepresented. Also, please keep your comments as brief as possible, and if the majority of the comment does not address the current issue, but becomes a red-herring, it will not be posted as well. If your comment does not fall into one of the above restrictions, then your comment will be posted unedited (you may want to check your spelling, grammar, etc.) We thank you for your time and comments.

One thing to keep in mind, each blog is one piece of evidence. Evidence has to then be interpreted, which is not a fact…but evidence strengthening or weakening a specific hypothesis or theory. So there can be multiple ways of interpreting the same evidence. I am not being unscientific, but asking more questions and being skeptical is being more scientific. I am still working on these, so please help with your comments.

 

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Pictures to add:

[i] Tas Walker, Oxidizable carbon ratio dating, July 20, 2014, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/oxidizable-carbon-ratio-dating, accessed August 5, 2014.

[ii] Vance Ferrell, The Evolution Handbook, Evolution Facts, Inc, Altamont, TN, 2001, p. 186-187.

Theodore W. Rybka, Consequences of Time Dependent Nuclear Decay Indices on Half Lives, 1982, Acts & Facts 11(4), Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/article/200/, accessed August 8, 2014.

[iii] Andrew Snelling, The failure of U-Th-Pb ‘dating’ at Koongarra, Australia, April 1995, Journal of Creation 9(1):71-92, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/the-failure-of-u-th-pb-dating-at-koongarra-australia, accessed August 7, 2014.

Steven A. Austin, Grand Canyon Lava Flows: A Survey of Isotope Dating Methods, 1988, Acts & Facts 17(4), Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/article/grand-canyon-lava-flows-survey-isotope-dating-meth/, accessed August 7, 2014.

[iv] Jonathan Sarfati, Diamonds: a creationist’s best friend: Radiocarbon in diamonds: enemy of billions of years, September 2006, Creation 28(4):26-27, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/diamonds-a-creationists-best-friend, accessed August 5, 2014.

[v] Bryan Nickel, The Origin of Earth’s Radioactivity, Center for Scientific Creation, http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/Radioactivity2.html, accessed August 8, 2014.

  1. P. Hahn et al., “Survey on the Rate Perturbation of Nuclear Decay,” Radiochimica Acta, Vol. 23, 1976, pp. 23–37.

[vi] Radiocarbon Calibration, University of Oxford, July 22, 2014, http://c14.arch.ox.ac.uk/embed.php?File=calibration.html, accessed July 31, 2014.

[vii] John Woodmorappe, Much-inflate carbon-14 dates from subfossil trees:a new mechanism, December 2001, Journal of Creation 15(3):43-44, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/much-inflated-carbon-14-dates-from-subfossil-trees-a-new-mechanism#f1, accessed August 5, 2014.

[viii] Paul Giem, Carbon-14 Content of Fossil Carbon, 2001, Geoscience Research Institute, Origins 51:6-30, http://www.grisda.org/origins/51006.htm, accessed August 5, 2014.

[ix] Don Batten, Age of the earth: 101 evidences for a young age of the earth and the universe, June 4, 2009, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/age-of-the-earth, accessed August 5, 2014.

Don Batten, David Catchpoole, Jonathan Sarfati, and Carl Wieland, The Creation Answers Book: Chapter 4: What about carbon dating?, January 1, 2007, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/images/pdfs/cabook/chapter4.pdf, accessed August 5, 2014.

Jonathan Sarfati, Diamonds: a creationist’s best friend: Radiocarbon in diamonds: enemy of billions of years, September 2006, Creation 28(4):26-27, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/diamonds-a-creationists-best-friend, accessed August 5, 2014.

Russell Humphreys, Don DeYoung, Eugene Chaffin, Andrew Snelling, John Baumgardner, and Steven Austin, Radioisotopes and the Age of the Earth, March 9, 2011, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/geology/radiometric-dating/radioisotopes-and-the-age-of-the-earth/, accessed August 5, 2014.

[x] Don Batten, David Catchpoole, Jonathan Sarfati, and Carl Wieland, The Creation Answers Book: Chapter 4: What about carbon dating?, January 1, 2007, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/images/pdfs/cabook/chapter4.pdf, accessed August 5, 2014.

[xi] Robert Doolan, How do you date a New Zealand volcano?, December 1990, Creation 13(1):15, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/how-do-you-date-a-new-zealand-volcano, accessed August 7, 2014.

Steven A. Austin, Excess Argon within Mineral Concentrates from the New Dacite Lava Dome at Mount St. Helens Volcano, 1996, Creation Science Foundation, Ltd. A.C.N. 010 120 304 Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal Vol. 10 (Part 3) – ISSN 1036 CEN Tech. J., Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/research/index/researchp_sa_r01/, accessed August 7, 2014.

[xii] Mike Riddle, The New Answers Book, Chapter 9: Does Radiometric Dating Prove the Earth Is Old?, October 4, 2007, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/geology/radiometric-dating/does-radiometric-dating-prove-the-earth-is-old/, accessed August 5, 2014.

[xiii] Andrew Snelling, Radiometric Dating: Problems with the Assumptions, September 2, 2009, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/geology/radiometric-dating/radiometric-dating-problems-with-the-assumptions/, accessed August 5, 2014.

[xiv] Tas Walker, Radioactive dating methods: Ways they make conflicting results tell the same story, October 2010, Creation 32(4):30-31, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/radioactive-dating-anomalies, accessed August 5, 2014.

Andrew Snelling, Geological conflict: Young radiocarbon date for ancient fossil wood challenges fossil dating, March 2000, Creation 22(2):44-47, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/geological-conflict, accessed August 5, 2014.

Tas Walker, The dating game, December 2003, Creation 26(1):36-39, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/the-dating-game, accessed August 5, 2014.

Marvin L. Lubenow, The pigs took it all, June 1995, Creation 17(3):36-38, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/the-pigs-took-it-all, accessed August 5, 2014.

Don Batten, David Catchpoole, Jonathan Sarfati, and Carl Wieland, The Creation Answers Book: Chapter 4: What about carbon dating?, January 1, 2007, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/images/pdfs/cabook/chapter4.pdf, accessed August 5, 2014.

Russell Humphreys, Don DeYoung, Eugene Chaffin, Andrew Snelling, John Baumgardner, and Steven Austin, Radioisotopes and the Age of the Earth, March 9, 2011, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/geology/radiometric-dating/radioisotopes-and-the-age-of-the-earth/, accessed August 5, 2014.

[xv] Time and Time Again, August 14, 2008, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/geology/radiometric-dating/time-and-time-again/, accessed August 5, 2014.

Sid Perkins, A Grand Old Canyon, November 29, 2012, Science AAAS, Latest News, http://news.sciencemag.org/2012/11/grand-old-canyon, accessed August 5, 2014.

[xvi] Jon Covey, The Unreliability of Radiometric Dating, Creation in the Crossfire, http://www.creationinthecrossfire.org/Articles/Radiometric%20Dating.html, accessed August 8, 2014.

Whitcomb, J. C., DeYoung, D. B., The Moon: Its Creation, Form and Significance, BMH Books, Winona Lake, p. 100, (1978). The table data was taken from the following sources:

  • Proceedings of the Second Lunar Science Conference, Vol. 2, pp. 1117, 1494, 1496, 1499, 1516, 1539, 1593, 1620, 1631 (1971).
  • Apollo 12 Preliminary Science Report (NASA SP-235), pp. 205-208 (1970).
  • Science, 167, 3918, pp. 462-463, 471-473, 479-480, 555-558 (1970).
  • Earth and Planetary Science Letters, 14, 281 (1972)
  • Proceedings of the Third Lunar Science Conference, Vol. 2, 1550 (1972)
  • Proceedings of the Fourth Lunar Science Conference, Vol. 2, pp. 1200 and 1804 (1973).
  • Earth and Planetary Science Letters, pp. 17, 36 (1972).

[xvii] Tas Walker, Radioactive dating methods: Ways they make conflicting results tell the same story, October 2010, Creation 32(4):30-31, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/radioactive-dating-anomalies, accessed August 5, 2014.

[xviii] Tas Walker, The dating game, December 2003, Creation 26(1):36-39, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/the-dating-game, accessed August 5, 2014.

Bowler, J.M. and Magee, J.W., Redating Australia’s oldest human remains: a sceptic’s view, Journal of Human Evolution 38:719–726, 2000.

Ralph W. Matthews, Radiometric dating and the age of the Earth, December 1982, Creation 5(1):41-44, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/radiometric-dating-age-of-earth, accessed August 6, 2014.

[xix] Andrew Snelling, Radiometric Dating: Problems with the Assumptions, September 2, 2009, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/geology/radiometric-dating/radiometric-dating-problems-with-the-assumptions/, accessed August 5, 2014.

[xx] R. Humphreys, Young helium diffusion age of zircons supports accelerated nuclear decay, in Vardiman et al., Radioisotopes and the Age of the Earth, 2005, 74.

Mike Riddle, The New Answers Book, Chapter 9: Does Radiometric Dating Prove the Earth Is Old?, October 4, 2007, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/geology/radiometric-dating/does-radiometric-dating-prove-the-earth-is-old/, accessed August 5, 2014.

Don Batten, David Catchpoole, Jonathan Sarfati, and Carl Wieland, The Creation Answers Book: Chapter 4: What about carbon dating?, January 1, 2007, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/images/pdfs/cabook/chapter4.pdf, accessed August 5, 2014.

[xxi] Don Batten, David Catchpoole, Jonathan Sarfati, and Carl Wieland, The Creation Answers Book: Chapter 4: What about carbon dating?, January 1, 2007, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/images/pdfs/cabook/chapter4.pdf, accessed August 5, 2014.

[xxii] Ralph W. Matthews, Radiometric dating and the age of the Earth, December 1982, Creation 5(1):41-44, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/radiometric-dating-age-of-earth, accessed August 6, 2014.

[xxiii] Ralph Matthews, Reflections on the emperor’s new clothes, September 1995, Creation 17(4):35-37, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/reflections-on-the-emperors-new-clothes, accessed August 6, 2014.

Theodore W. Rybka, Geophysical and Astronomical Clocks, American Writing and Publishing Co., Irvine (California), 1992.

[xxiv] Hamish Johnston, Radioactive decay accounts for half of Earth’s heat, July 19, 2011, Physics World, http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2011/jul/19/radioactive-decay-accounts-for-half-of-earths-heat, accessed August 8, 2014.

[xxv] Jon Covey, The Unreliability of Radiometric Dating, Creation in the Crossfire, http://www.creationinthecrossfire.org/Articles/Radiometric%20Dating.html, accessed August 8, 2014.

Butcher, H. R., 1987, “Thorium in G-dwarf Stars as a Chronometer for the Galaxy,” Nature 328:127

[xxvi] Jon Covey, The Unreliability of Radiometric Dating, Creation in the Crossfire, http://www.creationinthecrossfire.org/Articles/Radiometric%20Dating.html, accessed August 8, 2014.

Faure, Gunter, Principles of Isotope Geology, 2nd ed., John Wiley & Sons, New York, (1986), p. 282.

[xxvii] Sir Arthur Keith, 1959, quoted by Kent Hovind, Scientists’ Quotes About Evolution, September 7, 2010, Creation Today, http://creationtoday.org/scientists-quotes-about-evolution/, accessed August 20, 2014.

Radiometric Dating – Naturalistic/Evolutionary Perspective

 

 

Introduction:

Radioactive elements are primarily heavier elements on the periodic scale with unstable atoms, usually because they are so big, and consequently the nucleus breaks down and loses energy, forming smaller atoms and particles and resulting in a more stable element. This process is sometimes described as going from a parent isotope (beginning element) to a daughter isotope (ending element).

Radiometric Dating methods are absolute methods in determining how old testable items are. Based on radiometric dating… how old is the earth? Why is it important to know the age of the earth? How many assumptions are made in these techniques? How large is the error within tests? Is radiometric dating reliable?

 

Naturalistic/Evolutionary Answer:

Radiometric dating has proven, over and over again, that the earth is billions of years old. Scientists know through diligent research that there are different methods for open systems, closed systems, and different rock types,[i] and corrections are able to be done to determine an accurate result. “Some of the methods have internal checks, so that the data themselves provide good evidence of reliability or lack thereof.”[ii] Errors will be clearly recognized when the data is analyzed. “The ages of rock formations are rarely based on a single, isolated age measurement,” but “are verified whenever possible and practical, and are evaluated by considering other relevant data.”[iii]

Radiocarbon dating (Carbon-14 decays away over time) is one of the most common dating techniques. “Radiocarbon dating can easily establish that humans have been on the earth for over twenty thousand years, at least twice as long as creationists are willing to allow. Therefore it should come as no surprise that creationists…have been trying desperately to discredit this method for years. They have their work cut out for them, however, because radiocarbon (C-14) dating is one of the most reliable of all the radiometric dating methods.”[iv]

© Eugene Alvin Villar, 2008. This file is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license. – picture credits from wikipedia.

From observations, there are usually many daughter isotopes and evidence (including radiohalos) of those having come from parent isotopes, which are less abundant (which is to be expected). More radioactive decay has taken place within the rocks than could have occurred in just a few thousand years. To suggest that the amount of radioactive decay we observe has occurred within 6,000 years, or even that the majority occurred due to a worldwide flood, is preposterous. It would have created a vast of heat all at once.

Creationists claim that there are many examples where radiometric dating has supposedly been shown to be unreliable. “This argument is specious and akin to concluding that all wristwatches do not work because you happen to find one that does not keep accurate time…Some of the “errors” are not errors at all but simply results obtained in the continuing effort to explore and improve the methods and their application.”[v] “Studies…are routinely done to ascertain which materials are suitable for dating and which are not, and to determine the cause of sometimes strange results.” For example, the 1801 lava flow in Hawaii was dated to be much older because of the foreign rocks that were included in the magma that were originally much older.[vi]

As another example, a living freshwater mussel was dated around two thousand years old due to the old carbon that is within the ocean.[vii] This is called “the reservoir effect,” which “is well known by scientists, who work hard to understand the limitations of their tools…Contrary to creationist propaganda, limitations of a tool do not invalidate the tool.”[viii] “Reservoir corrections for the world oceans can be found at the Marine Reservoir Correction Database.”[ix]

Radiocarbon dates can also be skewed because the dated plants are within 200 meters of volcanic vents and are thus getting old Carbon, but “200 m away from the source, plants yielded an age in agreement with that expected.”[x] So for most wood, “there is no such problem because wood gets its carbon straight from the air, complete with a full dose of C-14.”[xi]

Creationists claim that C-14 has been found in coal, oil, and natural gas and so they can’t be millions of years old. “Radiocarbon dating doesn’t work well on objects much older than twenty thousand years,” because background contamination radiation will disrupt the results.[xii] Others suggest that C-14 dating is accurate to about 40,000 or 50,000 years.[xiii]

“C-14 is forming today faster than it’s decaying. However, it has fluctuated up and down over the past ten thousand years. This is determined by analyzing the radiocarbon dates of bristlecone pines that are themselves a way of dating based on the amount of rings, which is very consistent.”[xiv] Tree-ring dating coincides with and calibrates the C-14 dating results.[xv]

The magnetic field strength would affect the creation and decay rates of C-14, but even though it has fluctuated over Earth’s history, it has been more or less the same based on archaeological and geological data. This also correlates well with tree-ring dating.[xvi]

The rate of decay of elements is well documented and the decay rate is constant and unchanging. Radiometric dating can even work when elements move in or out of rocks. The Earth has been very stable and a lot is known about the composition of the Earth throughout its history, thus scientists are able to make very accurate descriptions and estimations of how the elements have reacted.

There is little reason to doubt the accuracy of radiometric dating techniques. Countless radiometric studies of rocks and other objects from all over the world confirm ages of tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions, and billions of years old. Studies prove beyond a doubt that billions of years have ticked by.

“Dr. Dalrymple, an expert in radiometric dating with lots of hands-on experience, puts the percentage of bad dates at only 5-10 percent…When you consider that each radiometric method is subject to different types of error, that the different “clocks” run at different speeds, such an agreement would be extremely rare on the basis of pure chance. In a number of instances, more than you might imagine, dates are further corroborated by methods that have nothing to do with radioactivity. Thus, the big, statistical picture painted by radiometric dating is excellent. Today, we have some 100,000 radiometric dates, the vast majority contributing sensibly to the overall picture.”[xvii]

“For decades, young-Earth creationists (YECs) have vainly searched the geology and geochemistry literature to find ways of discrediting radiometric dating and protecting their antiquated biblical interpretations. YEC John Woodmorappe (a pseudonym), for example, has been at the forefront in misquoting and misrepresenting radiometric dating results from the geology and geochemistry literature.”[xviii] “The only way creationists can hang on to their chronology is to poke all the holes they can into radiocarbon dating. However, as we have seen, it has survived their most ardent attacks.”[xix]

 

by Brian Mariani and others

 

Is the above correct? Do you evolutionists agree with this position? I have tried to write it as you believe it. Do you have any disagreements or concerns or additions?

 

Before commenting, please read the following disclosures.

Any offensive language will automatically disqualify your comment for publication, even if the arguments contained are good. Please comment on the ideas that are presented and not the presenter.  If your comment becomes an ad hominem argument and does not substantially address the issue, your comment will be disqualified as well.  We are looking for real arguments, not fallacious ones, so that we can present and challenge opposing ideas and arguments as they are truly believed by evolutionists.  We do not want to tear down straw men as well as you do not want to be misrepresented. Also, please keep your comments as brief as possible, and if the majority of the comment does not address the current issue, but becomes a red-herring, it will not be posted as well. If your comment does not fall into one of the above restrictions, then your comment will be posted unedited (you may want to check your spelling, grammar, etc.) We thank you for your time and comments.

One thing to keep in mind, each blog is one piece of evidence. Evidence has to then be interpreted, which is not a fact…but evidence strengthening or weakening a specific hypothesis or theory. So there can be multiple ways of interpreting the same evidence. I am not being unscientific, but asking more questions and being skeptical is being more scientific. I am still working on these, so please help with your comments.

If you would like to see if an AOI seminar is right for you, or you would like to help the work of Alpha Omega Institute, please visit our website events page or our donate page. Keep up to date with what AOI is doing.  Thanks for your partnership.

[i] G. Brent Dalrymple, How Old is the Earth, A Response to “Scientific” Creationism: Radiometric Dating, The TalkOrigins Archive, http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dalrymple/radiometric_dating.html, accessed August 8, 2014.

[ii] G. Brent Dalrymple, How Old is the Earth, A Response to “Scientific” Creationism: Radiometric Dating, The TalkOrigins Archive, http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dalrymple/radiometric_dating.html, accessed August 8, 2014.

[iii] G. Brent Dalrymple, How Old is the Earth, A Response to “Scientific” Creationism: Radiometric Dating, The TalkOrigins Archive, http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dalrymple/radiometric_dating.html, accessed August 8, 2014.

[iv] Christopher Gregory Weber, Answers to Creationist Attacks on Carbon-14 Dating, Spring 1982, Vol 3, Num 2, Pages 23-29, http://ncse.com/cej/3/2/answers-to-creationist-attacks-carbon-14-dating, accessed July 17, 2014.

[v] G. Brent Dalrymple, How Old is the Earth, A Response to “Scientific” Creationism: Radiometric Dating, The TalkOrigins Archive, http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dalrymple/radiometric_dating.html, accessed August 8, 2014.

[vi] G. Brent Dalrymple, How Old is the Earth, A Response to “Scientific” Creationism: Radiometric Dating, The TalkOrigins Archive, http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dalrymple/radiometric_dating.html, accessed August 8, 2014.

[vii] Christopher Gregory Weber, Answers to Creationist Attacks on Carbon-14 Dating, Spring 1982, Vol 3, Num 2, Pages 23-29, http://ncse.com/cej/3/2/answers-to-creationist-attacks-carbon-14-dating, accessed July 17, 2014.

[viii] Claim CD011.4, last modified July 8, 2004, The TalkOrigins Archive, http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD011_4.html, accessed August 7, 2014.

Christopher Gregory Weber, Answers to Creationist Attacks on Carbon-14 Dating, Spring 1982, Vol 3, Num 2, Pages 23-29, http://ncse.com/cej/3/2/answers-to-creationist-attacks-carbon-14-dating, accessed July 17, 2014.

[ix] Thomas Higham, Natural Corrections: Reservoir effects, web-info radiocarbon, http://www.c14dating.com/corr.html, accessed August 7, 2014.

[x] Thomas Higham, Natural Corrections: Reservoir effects, web-info radiocarbon, http://www.c14dating.com/corr.html, accessed August 7, 2014.

[xi] Christopher Gregory Weber, Answers to Creationist Attacks on Carbon-14 Dating, Spring 1982, Vol 3, Num 2, Pages 23-29, http://ncse.com/cej/3/2/answers-to-creationist-attacks-carbon-14-dating, accessed July 17, 2014.

[xii] Christopher Gregory Weber, Answers to Creationist Attacks on Carbon-14 Dating, Spring 1982, Vol 3, Num 2, Pages 23-29, http://ncse.com/cej/3/2/answers-to-creationist-attacks-carbon-14-dating, accessed July 17, 2014.

[xiii] Bernie Hobbs, A date with carbon, December 9, 2010, ABC Science, http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2010/12/09/3088319.htm, accessed August 5, 2014.

John Woodmorappe, Much-inflate carbon-14 dates from subfossil trees:a new mechanism, December 2001, Journal of Creation 15(3):43-44, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/much-inflated-carbon-14-dates-from-subfossil-trees-a-new-mechanism#f1, accessed August 5, 2014.

[xiv] Christopher Gregory Weber, Answers to Creationist Attacks on Carbon-14 Dating, Spring 1982, Vol 3, Num 2, Pages 23-29, http://ncse.com/cej/3/2/answers-to-creationist-attacks-carbon-14-dating, accessed July 17, 2014.

[xv] Radiocarbon Calibration, University of Oxford, July 22, 2014, http://c14.arch.ox.ac.uk/embed.php?File=calibration.html, accessed July 31, 2014.

[xvi] Christopher Gregory Weber, Answers to Creationist Attacks on Carbon-14 Dating, Spring 1982, Vol 3, Num 2, Pages 23-29, http://ncse.com/cej/3/2/answers-to-creationist-attacks-carbon-14-dating, accessed July 17, 2014.

[xvii] Dave E. Matson, How Good Are Those Young-Earth Arguments? A1. Woodmorappe’s Collection of Bad Dates, 1994-2002, The TalkOrigins Archive, http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/howgood-add.html, accessed August 5, 2014.

[xviii] Kevin R. Henke, “RATE” Leaders Abandon Geologic Fantasies and Admit that Extensive Radioactive Decay has Occurred, Old Earth Ministries, http://www.oldearth.org/rate_admit.htm, accessed August 8, 2014.

[xix] Christopher Gregory Weber, Answers to Creationist Attacks on Carbon-14 Dating, Spring 1982, Vol 3, Num 2, Pages 23-29, http://ncse.com/cej/3/2/answers-to-creationist-attacks-carbon-14-dating, accessed July 17, 2014.

Oldest Records and Objects – Creation Perspective

 

Creation Answer:

Based on the history recorded in the Bible, we would expect that the oldest objects and records should be only up to about 6,000 years old or even less due to the destructive global flood around 4,400 years ago. There would be no problem if human remains or objects were found in the fossil record.[i] Naturalists have no problem assigning an age older than 6,000 years to an object because they expect or assume that humans have slowly developed civilizations over the past 200,000 years.

In the middle to late 1800s, researchers assumed that the stone, bronze, and iron tools demonstrated the development of mankind. However, in some cases “the iron, bronze and stone tools are all mixed together”[ii] at the same dig sites. In fact, “modern archaeologists now ack­now­ledge that the Stone–Bronze–Iron Age system is not very helpful outside Europe.” In fact, “the archaeological evidence suggested that rather than developing slowly and painfully, as is normal with human societies, the civilization of Ancient Egypt, like that of the Olmecs, emerged all at once and fully formed.”[iii]

“While there has been a sequence to technological innovation, all the basics were well advanced long before Noah’s Flood in the days of Tubal–cain, who ‘forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron’ (Genesis 4:22).”[iv] In fact, there are people groups today that live like Stone Age hunter-gatherers that have actually “devolved” from more advanced civilizations due to location or cultural changes.[v]

Modern anthropologists may “tend to ignore the local cultural memories as of no consequence, effectively imposing a western evolutionary stamp onto their past.”[vi] Assumptions among archaeologists are quite evident when you look at the different ways that archaeologists interpret Egyptian chronology[vii] or the Ice Age.[viii] “If you believe the Ice Age lasted 2.6 million years, then you must assume human beings were making the same basic tools for at least 50,000 generations before any new ideas were invented. That scenario does not quite fit what we know about human ingenuity.”[ix]

“Imagine if you and your extended family were suddenly forced to migrate rapidly into an unpopulated wilderness. Even though you come from a society with great technology, it is likely that your family group would not carry all of the necessary knowledge with you to, for example, be able to find ore-bodies, and smelt and work metals. So you might choose to use stone tools to survive.”[x] Caves were ready made homes that offered great protection and cool temperatures in the summer, and warmer temperatures in the winter.

Chauvet-Pont-d’arc cave painting

“The typical ‘cave-man’ is portrayed as a hairy, dim-witted, brutish creature. However, many cave paintings reveal a skill equivalent to that of some of the greatest artists of modern times…“‘Stone-age’ musical instruments” reveal “a high level of understanding and musical ability.” [xi] We expect to find stone tools, cave art, and metal tools at nearly the same time as well. It’s quite possible that the poorest of people could not afford metal tools and simply made do with stone tools.

Göbekli Tepe, with its location and intricate carvings of animals, may be “one of the earliest big human monuments we have—a tentative dating would put it soon after the Flood.” “To put things in perspective [about Göbekli Tepe] —archaeologists are claiming that, 12,000 years ago, people were capable of carving these huge monuments. This is supposed to be long before any sort of written language, thousands of years before the Egyptian pyramids, and prior to the settlement of Sumer. Out of nowhere, we have this ancient monument, and then humans supposedly put down their chisels and don’t build anything for thousands of years more—but when they do, we get Sumer and the Egyptian pyramids. This stretches credulity.”[xii]

“Only 5% of Göbekli Tepe has been uncovered—who knows what will be discovered as the other circles are excavated. At this point, archaeologists are making tons of assumptions that they can’t possibly know. They have a little bit of data, to which they add a lot of assumptions to give the narrative gloss so that the History Channel can make a compelling piece on it.”[xiii]

“Reports about human origins tend to catch the attention of the world’s media, especially when they claim older and older dates.”[xiv] This may be a factor for scientists to stretch the truth to make their research seem more significant (older) than it is so that they can gain more funding. Cultural pride may even be an issue in making correct assessments of the bits and pieces of evidence that is found in archaeological investigations.

From a naturalistic standpoint, the oldest objects are the Oldowan tools.[xv] But, both dating methods used (argon/argon dating and paleomagnetic dating) are based on assumptions and thus are questionable. In dating the supposed 400,000 year old Schöningen spears, “their method of dating [was] biostratigraphy.”[xvi] This method dates an object based on the organisms found alongside it. Ultimately, it is circular reasoning and based on a lot of assumptions.[xvii]

Naturalists date objects based on the layers of the sediment, astronomical alignments, radiometric dating, and similarities with other sites or objects such as pottery styles, coins, etc. These methods are based on a lot of assumptions and are greatly debated based on some inconsistent results. Archaeology is like a big puzzle, it is not as objective and straight-forward as one would hope, so realistically, there is a lot of guesswork and that guesswork is influenced by the opinions of the researcher. It has been said “put three archaeologists in a room and you get five opinions.”[xviii]

“Researchers recognize that published dates are based on many unprovable assumptions so they have no hesitation dismissing dates they do not agree with.”[xix] “The published dates give the impression of being precise and absolute but in reality they are subjective and flexible.” Mungo Man, the Aborigine from New South Wales, Australia was dated at 24,000 years old in the 1960s. “Twenty years later, a different dating method gave an age of 42,000 years, so the carbon-14 dates were abandoned and the duration of Aboriginal occupation revised upward. Then in 1999 researchers, using five different methods, obtained a date of 62,000 years. This date has become popular with tourist guides in Australia, but many geologists won’t accept the new date because it contradicts the big-picture view of human evolution world-wide.”[xx]

“A popular theory, proposed by liberal “scholars,” said that the Hebrews “borrowed” from the Babylonians, but no conclusive proof has ever been offered. The differences, including religious, ethical, and sheer quantity of details, make it unlikely that the Biblical account was dependent on any extant source from the Sumerian traditions. The divine inspiration of the Bible would demand that the Genesis account is the correct version…The Book of Genesis is viewed for the most part as an historical work, even by many liberal scholars, while the Epic of Gilgamesh is viewed as mythological.”[xxi] God’s word is the priority and the total authority and it makes sense that it would influence other writings.

The observed evidences of modern archaeology can and do make a lot of sense with respect to the Bible and there have been numerous possible discoveries (Sodom and Gomorrah, Jericho, King David, and many more) that have continued to confirm the truth of the Bible.[xxii] Evidence from modern archaeology better correlates with the Biblical record as opposed to the evolutionary timeline.

 

 

What the Bible Says: Gen 1, 2, 3, 6, 7

 

by Kylie Steele and Brian Mariani

 

Before commenting, please read the following disclosures.

Any offensive language will automatically disqualify your comment for publication, even if the arguments contained are good. Please comment on the ideas that are presented and not the presenter.  If your comment becomes an ad hominem argument and does not substantially address the issue, your comment will be disqualified as well.  We are looking for real arguments, not fallacious ones, so that we can present and challenge opposing ideas and arguments as they are truly believed by evolutionists.  We do not want to tear down straw men as well as you do not want to be misrepresented. Also, please keep your comments as brief as possible, and if the majority of the comment does not address the current issue, but becomes a red-herring, it will not be posted as well. If your comment does not fall into one of the above restrictions, then your comment will be posted unedited (you may want to check your spelling, grammar, etc.) We thank you for your time and comments.

One thing to keep in mind, each blog is one piece of evidence. Evidence has to then be interpreted, which is not a fact…but evidence strengthening or weakening a specific hypothesis or theory. So there can be multiple ways of interpreting the same evidence. I am not being unscientific, but asking more questions and being skeptical is being more scientific. I am still working on these, so please help with your comments.

 

If you would like to see if an AOI seminar is right for you, or you would like to help the work of Alpha Omega Institute, please visit our website events page or our donate page. Keep up to date with what AOI is doing.  Thanks for your partnership.

[i] Brian Thomas, Possible Human Artifact Found in Coal, February 20, 2013, Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/article/possible-human-artifact-found-coal/, accessed July 30, 2014.

John D. Morris, An Amazing Anomalous Fossil, 2010, Acts & Facts 39(2):16, Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/article/amazing-anomalous-fossil/, accessed July 30, 2014.

Andrew Snelling, Where Are All the Human Fossils?, December 1, 1991, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/fossils/fossil-record/where-are-all-the-human-fossils/, accessed July 30, 2014.

[ii] Robert Niemand, “The Stone ‘Age’ – a figment of the imagination?, September 2005, Creation 27(4):13, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/the-stone-age-a-figment-of-the-imagination, accessed July 28, 2014.

[iii] Graham Hancock, Fingerprints of the Gods, pp. 135–136, New York Crown Trade Paperbacks, 1995.

[iv] Robert Niemand, “The Stone ‘Age’ – a figment of the imagination?, September 2005, Creation 27(4):13, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/the-stone-age-a-figment-of-the-imagination, accessed July 28, 2014.

[v] Carl Wieland, A challenge to traditional cultural anthropology, December 1997, Journal of Creation 11(3):258-259, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/moriori-hunter-gatherers, accessed July 30, 2014.

David Catchpoole, The people that forgot time (and much else, too), June 2008, Creation 30(3):34-37, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/the-people-that-forgot-time-and-much-else-too, accessed July 30, 2014.

Carl Wieland, Tasmanian aborigines – another example of cultural ‘devolution,’ January 1979, Creation 2(1):18-19, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/tasmanian-aborigines-another-example-of-cultural-devolution, accessed July 30, 2014.

Joseph Mizzi and Michael Matthews, The amazing cave people of Malta: Evolutionist indoctrination has led many to link the idea of ‘cave dwelling’ with the notion of ‘primitive subhumans’. But this does not logically follow, as recent evidence confirms, December 2003, Creation 26(1):40-43, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/the-amazing-cave-people-of-malta, accessed July 30, 2014.

[vi] Tas Walker, Dating of “oldest pottery” from China is based on assumptions: The evidence is consistent with biblical history, June 11, 2009, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/dating-oldest-pottery-from-china, accessed July 28, 2014.

[vii] Elizabeth Mitchell, The New Answers Book 2, Chapter 24: Doesn’t Egyptian Chronology Prove That the Bible Is Unreliable?, July 22, 2010, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/archaeology/ancient-egypt/doesnt-egyptian-chronology-prove-bible-unreliable/, accessed July 30, 2014.

Elizabeth Mitchell, Radiocarbon Dating Shortens the Timeline for Ancient Egypt, September 19, 2013, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/archaeology/ancient-egypt/radiocarbon-dating-shortens-the-timeline-for-ancient-egypt/, accessed July 30, 2014.

Matt McClellan, Ancient Egyptian Chronology and the Book of Genesis, August 24, 2011, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/archaeology/ancient-egypt/ancient-egyptian-chronology-and-the-book-of-genesis/, accessed July 30, 2014.

David Down and John Ashton, Unwrapping the Pharaohs, (Green Forest, Ar: Master Books, 2006).

[viii] Andrew Snelling and Mike Matthews, When Was the Ice Age in Biblical History?, February 26, 2013, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/environmental-science/ice-age/when-was-the-ice-age-in-biblical-history/, accessed July 30, 2014.

Michael Oard, The New Answers Book, Chapter 16: Where Does the Ice Age Fit?, November 22, 2007, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/environmental-science/ice-age/where-does-the-ice-age-fit/, accessed July 30, 2014.

Jake Herbert, Was There an Ice Age?, 2013, Acts & Facts 42(12), Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/article/was-there-ice-age/, accessed July 30, 2014.

Ice Age, 2014, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/environmental-science/ice-age/, accessed July 30, 2014.

[ix] Andrew Snelling and Mike Matthews, When Was the Ice Age in Biblical History?, February 26, 2013, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/environmental-science/ice-age/when-was-the-ice-age-in-biblical-history/, accessed July 30, 2014.

[x] Steve Cardino, The mystery of ancient man, March 1998, Creation 20(2):10-14, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/the-mystery-of-ancient-man, accessed July 30, 2014.

[xi] Steve Cardino, The mystery of ancient man, March 1998, Creation 20(2):10-14, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/the-mystery-of-ancient-man, accessed July 30, 2014.

[xii] Lita Cosner and Robert Carter, How does Göbekli Tepe fit with biblical history?, July 26, 2011, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/gobekli-tepe, accessed July 30, 2014.

[xiii] Lita Cosner and Robert Carter, How does Göbekli Tepe fit with biblical history?, July 26, 2011, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/gobekli-tepe, accessed July 30, 2014.

[xiv] Tas Walker, Dating of “oldest pottery” from China is based on assumptions: The evidence is consistent with biblical history, June 11, 2009, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/dating-oldest-pottery-from-china, accessed July 28, 2014.

[xv] Angela M.H. Schuster, World’s Oldest Stone Tools, March/April 1997, Archaeology newsbriefs, Vol 50, No 2, http://archive.archaeology.org/9703/newsbriefs/tools.html, accessed July 25, 2014.

[xvi] Robert H. Gargett, Shedding New Light on the Schöningen Spears, October 8, 2012, The Subversive Archaeologist, http://www.thesubversivearchaeologist.com/2012/10/shedding-new-light-on-schoningen-spears.html, accessed July 25, 2014.

[xvii] Brian Thomas, Cyclostratigraphy: Another Round of Circular Reasoning?, June 20, 2014, Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/article/8195/, accessed July 30, 2014.

[xviii] Glenn Hodges, “Cahokia: America’s Lost City,” National Geographic, January 2011, 139.

[xix] Tas Walker, Dating of “oldest pottery” from China is based on assumptions: The evidence is consistent with biblical history, June 11, 2009, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/dating-oldest-pottery-from-china, accessed July 28, 2014.

[xx] Tas Walker, Dating of “oldest pottery” from China is based on assumptions: The evidence is consistent with biblical history, June 11, 2009, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/dating-oldest-pottery-from-china, accessed July 28, 2014.

[xxi] Frank Lorey, The Flood of Noah and the Flood of Gilgamesh, 1997, Acts & Facts 26(3), Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/article/noah-flood-gilgamesh/, accessed July 30, 2014.

[xxii] Noah Wiener, Top 20 Biblical Archaeology Events and Discoveries of 2012, January 11, 2013, Bible History Daily, Biblical Arachaeology Society, http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/news/top-20-biblical-archaeology-events-and-discoveries-of-2012/, accessed July 30, 2014.

  1. Archaeological Finds: Seven Compelling Evidences, March 20, 2011, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/archaeology/6-archaeological-finds/, accessed July 30, 2014.

Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman, The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology’s New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts, 2001, The New York Times, https://www.nytimes.com/books/first/f/finkelstein-bible.html, accessed July 30, 2014.

Oldest Records and Objects – Naturalistic/Evolutionary Perspective

 

Introduction:

They are a variety of old objects and records and more artifacts are constantly being discovered. Are these objects and records actually as old as they say they are?  How can you tell how old an object is? What is the oldest object ever found? 

Naturalistic/Evolutionary Answer:

“Genetic and fossil evidence indicate anatomically modern humans emerged in Africa around 120,000 years ago.”[i] Humans first developed simple things initially made out of rock before other materials were discovered or created. This Stone Age lasted until around 3000 BC where humans began using bronze tools (the Bronze Age) and that led to the development of iron tools in 1000 BC (the Iron Age).[ii] The first pottery was created around 21,000 years ago or some suggest even 26,000 years ago.[iii] Humans have been controlling fire for 800,000, but only started farming 12,000 years ago.[iv]

This photo is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license.

Two unique and megalithic sites are Stonehenge, which is dated to about 5,000 years ago[v] and Göbekli Tepe, in Turkey, which is dated to about 11,000 years old. Göbekli Tepe, “the world’s oldest temple” is a bunch of stone pillars set up in rings “crafted and arranged by prehistoric people who had not yet developed metal tools or even pottery.”[vi]

An 8 inch bone flute dating to 35,000 years old is the oldest musical instrument ever found so far. The earliest cave art is from the Chauvet caves in France that have been radiocarbon dated to 30,000-32,000 years old.[vii] “The oldest sculpture of a human being” is the Venus of Hohle Fels, which is a 40,000 year old carved piece of Mammoth ivory.[viii] The sophistication and creativity of music and art, in part, gave Homo sapiens the edge over Neanderthals.[ix]

Archaeologists found 70,000 year old beads in South Africa. “Beads are considered definitive evidence of symbolic thinking…[and] are tangible evidence of a concept of self…you’re not going to decorate yourself if you have no concept of self.”[x]

The Schöningen spears from Germany “are the oldest complete hunting weapons ever found…[at] 380,000 to 400,000 years old.”[xi] The oldest known tools are Oldowan stone tools originally found at the Olduvai Gorge in Tanzania.[xii] These tools are around 2.6 million years old and were actually created and used by Homo habilis. Tools may still have been used before this time, but these are the oldest found so far.

The age of these objects can be determined by the type of pottery or other objects that are there and by how many layers of sediment cover the object. Scientists often use Carbon-14 dating methods to date any organic material or remnants. The amount of ancient artifacts and the corresponding dates scientifically determined, completely refute the idea that the Earth is only 6,000 years old. There are many slow naturalistic processes like rock layer formation, tree rings growth, ice layers formation, mountain building, evolution and more that all coincide and demonstrate much more time than just 6,000 years.

There are also numerous historical records and ancient cultures that predate and have influenced the Bible.[xiii] Based on this and other archaeological evidences, it would be foolish to blindly believe the young earth perspective of human history.

 

by Kylie Steele and Brian Mariani

 

Is the above correct? Do you evolutionists agree with this position? I have tried to write it as you believe it. Do you have any disagreements or concerns or additions?

 

Before commenting, please read the following disclosures.

Any offensive language will automatically disqualify your comment for publication, even if the arguments contained are good. Please comment on the ideas that are presented and not the presenter.  If your comment becomes an ad hominem argument and does not substantially address the issue, your comment will be disqualified as well.  We are looking for real arguments, not fallacious ones, so that we can present and challenge opposing ideas and arguments as they are truly believed by evolutionists.  We do not want to tear down straw men as well as you do not want to be misrepresented. Also, please keep your comments as brief as possible, and if the majority of the comment does not address the current issue, but becomes a red-herring, it will not be posted as well. If your comment does not fall into one of the above restrictions, then your comment will be posted unedited (you may want to check your spelling, grammar, etc.) We thank you for your time and comments.

One thing to keep in mind, each blog is one piece of evidence. Evidence has to then be interpreted, which is not a fact…but evidence strengthening or weakening a specific hypothesis or theory. So there can be multiple ways of interpreting the same evidence. I am not being unscientific, but asking more questions and being skeptical is being more scientific. I am still working on these, so please help with your comments.

If you would like to see if an AOI seminar is right for you, or you would like to help the work of Alpha Omega Institute, please visit our website events page or our donate page. Keep up to date with what AOI is doing.  Thanks for your partnership.

[i] Hillary Mayell, Oldest Jewelry? “Beads” Discovered in African Cave, April 15, 2004, National Geographic News, http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/04/0415_040415_oldestjewelry.html, accessed July 25, 2014.

[ii] The Stone, Bronze, and Iron Ages, 2014, Essential Humanities, http://www.essential-humanities.net/history-overview/stone-bronze-iron-ages/, accessed July 25, 2014.

[iii] Andrew Lawler, World’s Oldest Pottery?, June 2, 2009, American Association for the Advancement of Science, Science Latest News, http://news.sciencemag.org/archaeology/2009/06/worlds-oldest-pottery, accessed July 25, 2014.

Adam Benton, The oldest pottery discovered, July 5, 2012, EvoAnth, http://evoanth.wordpress.com/2012/07/05/the-oldest-pottery-discovered/, accessed July 25, 2014.

Andrea Silnes, History of Ceramics, May 19, 2014, The American Ceramics Society, http://ceramics.org/learn-about-ceramics/history-of-ceramics, accessed July 25, 2014.

[iv] Human Evolution Timeline Interactive, Smithsonian: National Museum of Natural History, What does it mean to be human?, last updated July 17, 2014, http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-evolution-timeline-interactive, accessed July 25, 2014.

[v] Dan Jones, New Light on Stonehenge, October 2008, Smithsonian Magazine, http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/new-light-on-stonehenge-11706891/, accessed July 25, 2014.

[vi] Andrew Curry, Göbekli Tepe: The World’s First Temple?, November 2008, Smithsonian Magazine, http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/gobekli-tepe-the-worlds-first-temple-83613665/, accessed July 25, 2014.

[vii] Michael Marshall, Bear DNA is clue to age of Chaevet cave art, April 19, 2011, New Scientist, Magazine issue 2809, http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21028093.900-bear-dna-is-clue-to-age-of-chauvet-cave-art.html#.U9KueHl0zZ4, accessed July 25, 2014.

Don Hitchcock, Chauvet Cave, last update November 13, 2013, Don’s Maps, http://www.donsmaps.com/chauvetcave.html, accessed July 25, 2014.

[viii] Andrew Curry, The Cave Art Debate, March 2012, Smithsonian Magazine, http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-cave-art-debate-100617099/, accessed July 25, 2014.

[ix] Pallab Ghosh, ‘Oldest musical instrument’ found, June 25, 2009, BBC News, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8117915.stm, accessed July 25, 2014.

[x] Hillary Mayell, Oldest Jewelry? “Beads” Discovered in African Cave, April 15, 2004, National Geographic News, http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/04/0415_040415_oldestjewelry.html, accessed July 25, 2014.

[xi] Arlette P. Kouwenhoven, World’s Oldest Spears, May/June 1997, Archaeology newsbriefs, Vol 50, No 3, http://archive.archaeology.org/9705/newsbriefs/spears.html, accessed July 25, 2014.

[xii] Oldowan & Acheulean Stone Tools, last update July 25, 2014, Museum of Anthropology at the University of Missouri, http://anthromuseum.missouri.edu/minigalleries/handaxes/intro.shtml, accessed July 25, 2014.

[xiii] Melloson Allen, 10 Ways The Bible Was Influenced By Other Religions, June 30, 2013, ListVerse, http://listverse.com/2013/06/30/ten-influences-on-the-bible/, accessed July 30, 2014.

Jim Walker, The Dark Bible: A Short History of the Bible, 2006, http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible2.htm, accessed July 30, 2014.

Beauty and Art – Creation Perspective

Creation Answer:

Beauty and art are not just the result of evolution for mating purposes.[i] “Essentially, the foundational argument would suggest that, given the universal reality that the concept of “beauty” exists (even if it is in “the eye of the beholder”) there is an ultimate “standard” by which beauty is judged. Determining the aesthetic value of anything requires rational judgment, even though that judgment is unique to each individual.  Each rational judgment must rely on one’s ability to discriminate at a sensory or emotional level.”[ii]

“This examination makes a judgment regarding whether something is beautiful, sublime, disgusting, fun, cute, silly, entertaining, pretentious, discordant, harmonious, boring, humorous, or tragic. And, of course, since such an ability exists only in the mental acuity of imaginative appreciation, then the Source of such ability must also be both rational and emotional.”[iii]

God created man beautiful in His own image. The beauty in nature (including humans) is to reflect the glory and majesty of God and what He created, and also to show the unique design and creativity of our Designer. Like every other created thing, beauty and art were created as reminders for us to glorify God. All glory is owed to Him. Beauty and a creative, artistic ability are characteristics of humanity. Humans were created intricately and very uniquely to reflect God’s ability and talents, that through what He created, people could acknowledge that He is God.

God has given an almost limitless supply of resources and creativity for humans to develop further forms of art. God is Himself a magnificent artist. He designed the stars in the sky. He designed an amazing variety of animal and plant life. He paints beautiful sunsets that cause our jaws to drop in awe. God’s intricate artistic design is evidenced even down to the smallest functions of our cells. Our God is an awesome God. The sense of awe that a human feels inspires belief and is itself an evidence of God.[iv] “He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end” (Eccl 3:11, NIV). “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands,” (Ps 19:1), “because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.” (Rom 1:19-20 NASB)

Math is deeply rooted within art. Without math, people and scientists would not be able to know and figure out the artistic nature and beauty of our bodies.[v] This connection between math and art did not just develop naturally, but it was designed by God. God set the standard when He first created everything with its perfect dimension and size, and from that, man was able to understand these created entities: math, art and beauty.[vi]

God designed mankind to see the opposite gender as beautiful. He created man not to be alone, and designed us to interact, to enjoy each other, and to be intimate in the right context (marriage). He did this because He loves us and wants us to be blessed by the intimate love of one’s spouse. Therefore, the beauty of one’s spouse is a special thing that God gave us and the marriage relationship is analogous to God’s beauty as well as Christ’s relationship to us.

Evolutionists make assumptions as to why waterfalls or sunsets are beautiful. They simply show that we are higher evolved and so more intelligent, but they can’t completely explain intelligence and consciousness from their worldview. They can’t explain what makes us different from “other animals.” In fact, humanity’s hunger for beauty “is a wonder in itself! The flower is not impressed with its own majesty; it merely exists with no conscious awareness. The chimpanzee does not gaze longingly on the enigma of the Mona Lisa, nor do the stars muse on the heavens they themselves grace.”[vii]

Regarding the sophisticated nest of the bowerbird, “rather than an intellectual intention towards art, the great bowerbird instinctively builds remarkable structures, and the female instinctively responds to the optical effect, as programmed by the Creator. Only man, created in the image of God, has a true aesthetic sense. When appreciating the beauty and design of creatures like the bowerbird, the wise aesthetic judge praises the Creator of both art and beauty.”[viii]

peacock beauty

Photo Credit: Melissa Rohrer

“According to evolution, a complex pattern like the eye pattern in the peacock’s feather has evolved by the accumulation of hundreds of genetic mistakes occurring over vast periods of time. However, patterns like the blue ellipsoid in the eye are irreducible, i.e. they require several features to be simultaneously present in order for there to be a clear pattern. If only one barb in a peacock tail feather was to have a patch of blue color this would not produce a beautiful pattern. Such a random change would arguably cause the peahen to deselect, not select the pattern. Since evolution requires every step change to have a selective advantage, the eye pattern cannot evolve but must be designed complete from the beginning.”[ix] “Most evolutionists accept that creatures like the peacock have added beauty” or more beauty than is needed to survive. “Added beauty” has no evolutionary explanation except that it just happened for no reason, but rather it is “a hallmark of an intelligent designer, beauty in nature must be seen as an important evidence of design.”[x]

Naturalists have created the theory of sexual selection because, within nature, there are organisms like peacocks and birds of paradise that use aesthetic selection techniques to get a mate. There are many difficulties with the theory and so some scientists have developed “alternative theories for the origin of beauty. The existence of these alternative theories suggests that the theory of sexual selection is not sound…There is no satisfactory explanation of how the sexual selection cycle can start or why the peahen should prefer beautiful features.”[xi] The aesthetic features of these organisms are all beautiful to humans as well. “According to evolution, preference genes” (genes that cause the female to be attracted to a particular feature) “appear by totally random processes and therefore there could be a fashion for all kinds of features including ugly features.”[xii] Why aren’t there more preferred features that we would call ugly?

Notice, there are things that all humanity calls ugly or beautiful and this means that “there must exist a standard of perfect beauty.”[xiii] Naturalistic “researchers have not yet found a metaprogram in this universe that guides clouds of space dust into raw functional, let alone variously aesthetic, forms. After all, what does the impersonal universe care about beauty? A Creator God who appreciates beauty and wants others to appreciate His handiwork must be responsible for the origin of aesthetic features.”[xiv]

There is no good naturalistic reason why humans should trust our logic and emotions if they are simply evolved chemical reactions. Inspiration, passion, and desire have been created and given by God to us. God designed beauty, art, math, logic, consciousness, emotions, etc. and He designed us to appreciate them. Everything God has made is a beautiful, artistic design in accordance to His will. Even in a cursed and fallen world, God has created beauty that looks ahead to things to come. Therefore, we should explore deeper into what God has created and glorify Him through every aspect of our lives.

 

What the Bible Says: Gen 1:31; Job 12:7-9; Ps 8:3, 19:1, 50:6, 36:5, 65:6-7, 90:2,  104: 30-31; Gen 1:26-27; Gen 1:28; Gen 9:7; 2 Cor 4:6; Ps 145:5; Ps 145:12; Ps 8:1; Eccl 3:11; Is 6:3; Ex 31:3; Ex 31:5; Ex 35:31; Rom 1:18-20

 

 

Written By Brian Mariani and others

 

 

Before commenting, please read the following disclosures.

Any offensive language will automatically disqualify your comment for publication, even if the arguments contained are good. Please comment on the ideas that are presented and not the presenter.  If your comment becomes an ad hominem argument and does not substantially address the issue, your comment will be disqualified as well.  We are looking for real arguments, not fallacious ones, so that we can present and challenge opposing ideas and arguments as they are truly believed by evolutionists.  We do not want to tear down straw men as well as you do not want to be misrepresented. Also, please keep your comments as brief as possible, and if the majority of the comment does not address the current issue, but becomes a red-herring, it will not be posted as well. If your comment does not fall into one of the above restrictions, then your comment will be posted unedited (you may want to check your spelling, grammar, etc.) We thank you for your time and comments.

One thing to keep in mind, each blog is one piece of evidence. Evidence has to then be interpreted, which is not a fact…but evidence strengthening or weakening a specific hypothesis or theory. So there can be multiple ways of interpreting the same evidence. I am not being unscientific, but asking more questions and being skeptical is being more scientific. I am still working on these, so please help with your comments.

 

If you would like to see if an AOI seminar is right for you, or you would like to help the work of Alpha Omega Institute, please visit our website events page or our donate page. Keep up to date with what AOI is doing.  Thanks for your partnership.

 

 

[i] Kathryn Bell, God, the Bible, and Art: Part 1, BJU Press, http://www.bjupress.com/resources/articles/t2t/god-bible-and-art-part-1.php, accessed August 23, 2014.

[ii] God Caused Beauty, Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/aesthetics/, accessed August 22, 2014.

[iii] God Caused Beauty, Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/aesthetics/, accessed August 22, 2014.

[iv] Fazale Rana, What Inspires Your Belief in God?, February 13, 2014, Reasons to Believe, http://www.reasons.org/articles/what-inspires-your-belief-in-god, accessed August 23, 2014.

[v] Ruth Bancewicz, Beauty, Science & Theology, Part 3: Beauty & the Character of God, Science and Belief, http://scienceandbelief.org/2012/08/09/beauty-science-theology-part-3-beauty-the-character-of-god/, accessed August 23, 2014.

[vi] The Theory of Evolution vs. Creation Science, Creation & Evolution, http://www.pilgrimtours.com/creation/mathematics.htm, accessed August 23, 2014.

[vii] God Caused Beauty, Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/aesthetics/, accessed August 22, 2014.

[viii] Bowerbird’s Artistic Sense, September 18, 2010, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/birds/bowerbirds-artistic-sense/, accessed August 22, 2014.

[ix] Stuart Burgess, The Beauty of the Peacock Tail and the Problems with the Theory of Sexual Selection, August 1, 2001, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/natural-selection/peacock-tail-beauty-and-problems-theory-of-sexual-selection/, accessed August 22, 2014.

[x] Stuart Burgess, The Beauty of the Peacock Tail and the Problems with the Theory of Sexual Selection, August 1, 2001, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/natural-selection/peacock-tail-beauty-and-problems-theory-of-sexual-selection/, accessed August 22, 2014.

[xi] Stuart Burgess, The Beauty of the Peacock Tail and the Problems with the Theory of Sexual Selection, August 1, 2001, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/natural-selection/peacock-tail-beauty-and-problems-theory-of-sexual-selection/, accessed August 22, 2014.

[xii] Stuart Burgess, The Beauty of the Peacock Tail and the Problems with the Theory of Sexual Selection, August 1, 2001, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/natural-selection/peacock-tail-beauty-and-problems-theory-of-sexual-selection/, accessed August 22, 2014.

[xiii] God Caused Beauty, Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/aesthetics/, accessed August 22, 2014.

[xiv] Brian Thomas, The Apobetics of Aesthetics: A Hairy Problem for Evolution, 2009, Acts & Facts 38(4):18, Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/article/apobetics-aesthetics-hairy-problem-for-evolution/, accessed August 22, 2014.

Beauty and Art – Naturalistic/Evolutionary Perspective

Introduction:

“Aesthetics is the study of beauty, more often associated today with art.”[i] Some believe that beauty and art have developed as we have evolved, mainly for mating purposes and driven by selfish desires. Others believe that beauty and art were designed by a beautiful, loving, creative God to show His nature and glory to us and through us. What is beauty? Why do we have beauty? Is beauty for more than just mating purposes? What is art? Why is art so mathematical? Why do beautiful things like a sunset move us? 

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Photo Credit: Aimee Mariani

Naturalistic/Evolutionary Answer:

Beauty is displayed through people of both genders, as well as through the natural world. Beauty is an evolutionary advantage, present in people who are possibly at a higher evolved state. Based on natural selection, they will be chosen first, mate sooner and potentially survive better. This is the theory of sexual selection.[ii] Some think that only certain people have “natural beauty” stored in them and that beauty will show in their physical appearance or even in their skills or talents.[iii] “Natural beauty” may instead be universal, within every human being to one degree or another and it may be passed down by Natural Selection.[iv]

“There are indeed atheists who find no meaning, beauty, and morality in the universe. There are also atheists who find objective, intrinsic morality, beauty, and meaning in the universe, though not on the same basis as religious theists like Christians. There are also atheists — as well as more than a few religious theists, including Christians — who argue that meaning and beauty are subjective things we must personally commit to. As abstract concepts, they are created in our minds from our experiences with individual objects or events and thus have no truly independent, objective existence apart from the way we bring those elements together to create those concepts.”[v] “The experience of love and beauty…is a passive function of the mind.”[vi]

“This would mean that things like beauty and love are created from how we approach our world or how we treat other people. If that’s true, then it also means that we are personally responsible for the existence of things like beauty and love — they aren’t created by any gods and they are permanent fixtures of the universe which will persist regardless of what we do. They are, instead, something we must take responsibility for and nurture through our attitudes, behavior, and beliefs.”[vii]

“That would arguably mean that atheists are in a better position to appreciate things like love and beauty. In recognizing their responsibility for their existence, atheists can’t take such concepts for granted. If the universe is undesigned and undirected, we can only speak meaningfully about beauty, love, intelligence, etc., if we really mean it and if we really care about it because we can’t shift responsibility for them to some supernatural being.”[viii] How much greater is the joy which comes from creating beauty.”[ix]

The concept of beauty does not necessitate a God. Beauty is merely the understanding, recognition and appreciation of natural patterns. Due to highly developed eyes, minds and mating processes, humans have a better appreciation of beauty than lower evolved animals. Beauty appears to be more appreciated when organisms are more effectively able to communicate it, and thus humans have the best appreciation for beauty. Other animals or organisms cannot comprehend beauty as well.[x]  Beauty in nature happens by random chance and humans have evolved to appreciate it the most of all animals. Our fascination with the beauty in nature may be a leftover understanding or awareness of where we have evolved from and how to better survive..

Humans have evolved to be able to see beauty in other forms as well. Because of that evolved ability, humans have created many different kinds of art. Art is a creative work on paper, canvas or other mediums within the natural world. Art can be expressed through dance, music or other avenues. It is designed by a creative mind or even by some natural processes in nature. The earliest evidence of music dates back to 35,000 years ago, and the first art in the Chauvet caves in France to around 30,000-32,000 years ago. These forms of art show historic humanity’s higher creative spirit, which gave “them an edge over the Neanderthals.”[xi] There doesn’t need to be a God to give us art or beauty or that inspiration. They come about naturally.

Beauty is recognized when an experience causes sparks in the brain and automatically causes a desire to see or create more beauty. To some degree or another, humans have a natural desire to make beautiful art.[xii] The more creative and talented artists may also have evolutionary advantages, since art is another method to impress a potential mate. So the better one is at creating art and beauty, the better their chances to mate and survive. The bowerbird is a great example in that the male specifically builds a nest and integrates visually appealing aspects into it in an effort to impress the female.[xiii] As time has progressed, humans have evolved and gained more and more intelligence, so art styles have evolved and become more sophisticated over time.

In fact, the evolved ability of recognizing beauty may have allowed humans greater survival. For example, when humans see a beautiful blue sky, they are more attracted to that than moving towards a dangerous thunderstorm. Awareness of beauty may also lead to a general increase in observation, causing humans who would stand near a tremendous waterfall and look with a sense of awe and even fear, to be aware and thus avoid the dangers of the waterfall.

The awe and wonder that humans experience is not evidence of a God. “Nature inspires awe – awe of the reality of nature, not the fiction of God.”[xiv] The sense of awe is an emotional, psychological response to something so great, so vast, so beautiful that it causes us to marvel and wonder how it is possible. It inspires many humans to believe in a supernatural being in order to explain the amazing phenomenon.[xv] “The truth is far more inspiring and powerful than religious mythology. Knowing that the cosmos was not made just for us opens up whole new vistas of wonder and mystery – it makes it all the more surprising and amazing that we are here regardless.”[xvi]

“We have biases to see patterns and meaning and agency in the world, and the less rationally you think, the less likely you are to second-guess those biases. Awe might just let the spiritual floodgates open. The experience of awe leads to magical thinking, but that doesn’t mean it can’t also lead to scientific thinking. Once you’re done writing your poetry, you may still be driven to write the equations or conduct the experiments that will explain what you’ve just witnessed. We all have the Wow! We just choose our own ways of answering the How?”[xvii]

Beautiful things are often new and unique and so the fact that humans can recognize beautiful things means that they can better recognize new situations and better survive them. The observation of beautiful things is the start of the scientific process as observation is the first step. The more scientific an organism can be, the more they can learn and survive in this world.

So beauty and art have developed to help organisms survive better to pass on their genes to the next generation. They are products of this natural world and are not evidence of a God or gods.

 

By Brian Mariani and others

 

Is the above correct? Do you evolutionists agree with this position? I have tried to write it as you believe it. Do you have any disagreements or concerns or additions?

Before commenting, please read the following disclosures.

Any offensive language will automatically disqualify your comment for publication, even if the arguments contained are good. Please comment on the ideas that are presented and not the presenter.  If your comment becomes an ad hominem argument and does not substantially address the issue, your comment will be disqualified as well.  We are looking for real arguments, not fallacious ones, so that we can present and challenge opposing ideas and arguments as they are truly believed by evolutionists.  We do not want to tear down straw men as well as you do not want to be misrepresented. Also, please keep your comments as brief as possible, and if the majority of the comment does not address the current issue, but becomes a red-herring, it will not be posted as well. If your comment does not fall into one of the above restrictions, then your comment will be posted unedited (you may want to check your spelling, grammar, etc.) We thank you for your time and comments.

One thing to keep in mind, each blog is one piece of evidence. Evidence has to then be interpreted, which is not a fact…but evidence strengthening or weakening a specific hypothesis or theory. So there can be multiple ways of interpreting the same evidence. I am not being unscientific, but asking more questions and being skeptical is being more scientific. I am still working on these, so please help with your comments.

 

If you would like to see if an AOI seminar is right for you, or you would like to help the work of Alpha Omega Institute, please visit our website events page or our donate page. Keep up to date with what AOI is doing.  Thanks for your partnership.

 

[i] God Caused Beauty, Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/aesthetics/, accessed August 22, 2014.

[ii] Roger Sandall, Beauty, Art, and Darwin: The American Magazine, American.com, http://www.american.com/archive/2009/october/beauty-art-and-darwin, accessed August 23, 2014.

[iii] Russell Husted, Beauty: By Evolution or Creative Design?, Beauty: By Evolution or Creative Design?, http://www.in-this-place.com/id18.htm or https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.bible.prophecy/3Ty_MqBSnzE, accessed August 23, 2014.

[iv] Nancy E. Aiken, An Evolutionary Perspective on the Nature of Art, American Psychological Association – Division 10, http://www.apa.org/divisions/div10/articles/aiken.html, accessed August 23, 2014.

[v] Austin Cline, Myth: Atheists Can’t Appreciate Love & Beauty, Can’t Believe in Love or Beauty, About.com Agnosticism/Atheism, http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismmeaninglesshopeless/a/AtheistsBeauty.htm, accessed August 22, 2014.

Hannah Ginsborg, Kant’s Aesthetics and Teleology, 2013, Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kant-aesthetics/#2.6, accessed August 22, 2014.

[vi] Frank Zindler, Ethics Without Gods, American Atheists, http://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/ethics, accessed August 22, 2014.

[vii] Austin Cline, Myth: Atheists Can’t Appreciate Love & Beauty, Can’t Believe in Love or Beauty, About.com Agnosticism/Atheism, http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismmeaninglesshopeless/a/AtheistsBeauty.htm, accessed August 22, 2014.

[viii] Austin Cline, Myth: Atheists Can’t Appreciate Love & Beauty, Can’t Believe in Love or Beauty, About.com Agnosticism/Atheism, http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismmeaninglesshopeless/a/AtheistsBeauty.htm, accessed August 22, 2014.

[ix] Frank Zindler, Ethics Without Gods, American Atheists, http://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/ethics, accessed August 22, 2014.

[x] Russell Husted, Beauty: By Evolution or Creative Design?, Beauty: By Evolution or Creative Design?, http://www.in-this-place.com/id18.htm or https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.bible.prophecy/3Ty_MqBSnzE, accessed August 23, 2014.

[xi] Pallab Ghosh, ‘Oldest musical instrument’ found, June 25, 2009, BBC News, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8117915.stm, accessed July 25, 2014.

Michael Marshall, Bear DNA is clue to age of Chaevet cave art, April 19, 2011, New Scientist, Magazine issue 2809, http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21028093.900-bear-dna-is-clue-to-age-of-chauvet-cave-art.html#.U9KueHl0zZ4, accessed July 25, 2014.

Don Hitchcock, Chauvet Cave, last update November 13, 2013, Don’s Maps, http://www.donsmaps.com/chauvetcave.html, accessed July 25, 2014.

[xii] Roger Sandall, Beauty, Art, and Darwin: The American Magazine, American.com, http://www.american.com/archive/2009/october/beauty-art-and-darwin, accessed August 23, 2014.

[xiii] In attracting mates, male bowerbirds appear to rely on special optical effect, September 9, 2010, Phys.org, http://phys.org/news203257106.html, accessed August 22, 2014.

[xiv] Chapter Seven: Beyond Religion, Section 7: This wondrous universe, God would be an atheist, http://www.godwouldbeanatheist.com/7beyond/707wond.htm, accessed August 23, 2014.

[xv] Matthew Hutson, Awe Increases Religious Belief: The sense of awe leads to a sense of the divine, December 11, 2013, Psychology Today, http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/psyched/201312/awe-increases-religious-belief, accessed August 23, 2014.

[xvi] In Awe of Everything, Daylight Atheism, Pantheos.com, http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/in-awe-of-everything/, accessed August 23, 2014.

[xvii] Matthew Hutson, Awe Increases Religious Belief: The sense of awe leads to a sense of the divine, December 11, 2013, Psychology Today, http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/psyched/201312/awe-increases-religious-belief, accessed August 23, 2014.

God is Working!

Aimee, Caden, and I are thoroughly enjoying this roadtrip and trying to make the most of the time and the regions that we have experienced. To recap the last four weeks:

  • Praise God, the trip is going well so far! Brian Teaching Creation
  • Praise God, we have presented at 8 ½ Creation Groups, 2 Christian School Groups, 1 church service, interviewed several students on a college campus, and did 1 vendor booth for a charity race. We have attended 2 different Creation Museums. We have had meetings with ICR, Creation Today, CMI, and Creation Training Initiative as well as 4 different business men! And there is much more planned in the first half of December!
  • Praise God that we met a student in Texas that has applied and is very excited about DCTI!
  • Praise God for some very good connections and contacts and several good donations!
  • Praise God that over 6000 miles of driving so far (averaging 3-4 hours a day), the weather and driving have been great, and Caden has done really well. Caden seems to appreciate being out of the car more now!
  • Praise God for a large donation at a church we didn’t even present at!
  • Praise God for tremendous new experiences of logistically planning a trip of this magnitude and for gaining great practice speaking for groups!
  • Praise God for all the great regional food that we have had the fun of trying along the way. We’ve especially enjoyed the blessing of several home cooked meals from many gracious people!
  • Praise God for a couple of catch-up and rest days with Aimee’s sister in North Carolina. It was nice to stay in one place with family for a couple days!
  • Praise God for the encouragement from many elder Creation ministry folks excited about having our young blood working in Creation ministry!
  • Praise God for the rest and great family time together during this Thanksgiving weekend: everyone is loving the time playing with Caden and we are truly very blessed! 

I hope this was entertaining for you and a blessing to you to see how God is working. Please keep praying for more good opportunities and for more good donations and supporters for the school! Our goal is to, by the end of the year, add 200 more people that see our vision and will give at least $25 per month of ongoing support for DCTI. We want to see normal, everyday people being used by God to teach Creation and the gospel in their local community and to support what we believe God has called us to!

God Bless You All!

-Brian

If you would like to see if an AOI seminar is right for you, or you would like to help the work of Alpha Omega Institute, please visit our website events page or our donate page. Keep up to date with what AOI is doing.  Thanks for your partnership.

Laws of Logic – Creation Perspective

 

Creation Answer:

Everyone uses the laws of logic, and they are evidence of the nature, design, and existence of God. Christians use the laws of logic to provide substantiation to the idea that God’s word is true, just as naturalists/evolutionists use them to argue their beliefs. God gave us the tools of logic so we can think, grow, learn, and do science.

The laws of logic “are rooted in God’s own nature. Indeed, some scholars think the passage ‘In the beginning was the Word [logos]’ (Jn 1:1) is accurately translated, ‘In the beginning was Logic (a divine, rational mind).’”[i]

There are numerous laws of logic.[ii] One of them is called the law of non-contradiction, which states that it is impossible for something to both be true and false at the same time and in the same sense. For example it is contradictory, or it doesn’t make sense, to say that “a banana is a fruit and a banana is not a fruit.” The banana is either a fruit or it isn’t. Another law is called the law of identity, where something is actually the same with itself and different from another, or not something different than itself. The law of excluded middle says that there are only two choices in every proposition, either it has to be true (and its negation false) or false (and its negation true). “The Principle of Sufficient Reason is a powerful and controversial philosophical principle stipulating that everything must have a reason or cause.”[iii] “The Law of Cause and Effect states that every material effect must have an adequate antecedent or simultaneous cause.”[iv]

Naturalists can’t sufficiently answer why these laws exist and will even try to ignore the laws of logic in some cases. In fact, one apologist says “perhaps the Law of Cause and Effect seems intuitive to most, but common sense is foreign to many when God is brought into the discussion.”[v] This is true when naturalists are forced to try to explain the cause of the universe without the most logical cause (the all-powerful, outside of time and space, God). The naturalistic worldview has a lot of unanswerable questions.

God did not create the laws of logic. The “laws of logic are contingent on God. They are a reflection of the way God thinks. Thus, they cannot exist without Him any more than your reflection in a mirror can exist without you.”[vi] Since God has always existed and thought, the laws of logic are also eternal. “It is impossible for God to think illogically because in the Christian worldview, logic is a description of the way God thinks. The believer has a universal standard of reasoning that makes sense within his own worldview. The atheist does not.” [vii] The atheist, who claims that the laws of logic are eternal, “fails to explain how the Laws of Logic can be eternal and uncaused and what role they play in causing all other contingent realities.”[viii]

Icon of Paul the Apostle, Wikimedia Commons.

Icon of Paul the Apostle, Wikimedia Commons.

“The Christian worldview can make sense of [the] laws of logic. The Christian believes in universal, immaterial, invariant entities because God is himself omnipresent, immaterial, and invariant…As one example…the law of non-contradiction reflects God’s internal consistency: all truth is in God (Colossians 2:3), and God cannot deny himself (2 Timothy 2:13); therefore, all truth cannot be contradictory. The Christian worldview makes sense of the law of non-contradiction…Atheists do believe in laws of logic, but they cannot justify the existence of universal, abstract, invariant laws within their worldview.” They cannot answer “why should there be a law of non-contradiction, or for that matter, any laws of reasoning? An unjustified belief is arbitrary, which is one form of irrationality…In particular, those atheists who hold to a materialistic philosophy cannot make sense of laws of logic because laws of logic are not material.”[ix] “You can’t stub your toe on a law of logic.”[x]

Evolutionists have to borrow from fundamental Christian concepts to even be able to argue their points about evolution. “The debate over the existence of God is a bit like a debate over the existence of air. Can you imagine someone arguing that air doesn’t actually exist? He would offer seemingly excellent “proofs” against the existence of air, while simultaneously breathing air and expecting that we can hear his words as the sound is transmitted through the air. In order for us to hear and understand his claim, it would have to be wrong. Likewise, the atheist, in arguing that God does not exist must use laws of logic that only make sense if God does exist. In order for his argument to make sense, it would have to be wrong.”

The laws of logic could not develop slowly and could not be a product of evolution, but would have to exist conceptually from the beginning. As astrophysicist and apologist Dr. Jason Lisle asked, “if the brain is simply the result of mindless evolutionary processes that conveyed some sort of survival value in the past, why should we trust its conclusions?”[xi] Check out more of his explanations:

“The atheist might say, ‘Well, I can reason just fine, and I don’t believe in God.’ But this is no different than the critic of air saying, ‘Well, I can breathe just fine, and I don’t believe in air.’”

“The atheist might respond, ‘Laws of logic are conventions made up by man’…So, in some cultures it might be perfectly fine to contradict yourself. In some societies truth could be self-contradictory. Clearly that wouldn’t do. If laws of logic are just conventions, then they are not universal laws. Rational debate would be impossible if laws of logic were conventional, because the two opponents could simply pick different standards for reasoning. Each would be right according to his own arbitrary standard.”

“The atheist might respond, ‘Laws of logic are material—they are made of electro-chemical connections in the brain.’ But then the laws of logic are not universal…In fact, if the laws of logic are just electro-chemical connections in the brain, then they would differ somewhat from person to person because everyone has different connections in their brain,” and thus they would be an arbitrary (and conflicting) standard, not universal.

“Sometimes an atheist will attempt to answer with a more pragmatic response: ‘We use the laws of logic because they work.’ Unfortunately for him, that isn’t the question. We all agree the laws of logic work; they work because they’re true. The question is why do they exist in the first place? How can the atheist account for absolute standards of reasoning like the laws of logic? How can non-material things like laws exist if the universe is material only?”

“As a last resort, the atheist may give up a strictly materialistic view and agree that there are immaterial, universal laws. This is a huge concession; after all, if a person is willing to concede that immaterial, universal, unchanging entities can exist, then he must consider the possibility that God exists. But this concession does not save the atheist’s position. He must still justify the laws of logic. Why do they exist? And what is the point of contact between the material physical world and the immaterial world of logic? In other words, why does the material universe feel compelled to obey immaterial laws? The atheist cannot answer these questions. His worldview cannot be justified; it is arbitrary and thus irrational.”[xii]

Critics of the Bible often claim that one is illogical in believing that the miracles happened as described within the Bible. They “might argue that such things cannot happen based on known natural laws. With this we [creationists] agree. But who said that natural laws are the limit of what is possible? The biblical God is not bound by natural laws.”[xiii] With this and the evidence above, a belief in God is a very logical and consistent worldview.

“When the critic simply dismisses those claims of the Bible that do not appeal to his personal, unargued sense of what is possible, he is being irrational. He is committing the logical fallacy known as ‘begging the question.’ Namely, he has decided in advance that such things as miracles are impossible, thereby tacitly assuming that the Bible is not true because it contains miracles. But this is the very assumption with which he began his reasoning. The critic is reasoning in a vicious circle. He has decided in advance that there is not an all-powerful God who is capable of doing the things recorded in Scripture, and then argues on this basis against the biblical God.”[xiv]

Many “claim that the biblical doctrine of the Trinity is self-contradictory, it is not. The oneness and threeness of God refer to different aspects. The three eternal and co-equal Persons of the Godhead—Father, Son and Holy Spirit—are the same in essence but distinct in role—three Persons (or three centres of consciousness) and one Being.”[xv]

Many supposed contradictions within the historical texts of the Bible have been reconciled and ultimately are very minor or unrelated to the doctrinal claims and the internal and external consistency of the Bible.[xvi] “An important aspect of contradiction is self-refutation. Many statements by anti-Christians might appear reasonable on the surface, but when the statement is turned on itself, it refutes itself. Some common examples are:

  • ‘There is no truth’—this would mean that this sentence itself is not true.
  • ‘We can never know anything for certain’—so how could we know that for certain?
  • ‘A statement is only meaningful if it is either a necessary truth of logic or can be tested empirically’ (the once popular verification criterion for meaning of the ‘Logical Positivists’)—this statement itself is neither a necessary truth of logic nor can it be tested empirically, so it is meaningless by its own criteria.
  • ‘There are no moral absolutes, so we ought to be tolerant of other people’s morals’—but ‘ought’ implies a moral absolute that toleration is good.”[xvii]

 

“By embracing materialism, the atheist has destroyed the possibility of knowledge, as well as science and technology…Only the God of the Bible can be the foundation for knowledge (Proverbs 1:7; Colossians 2:3)…Since God has revealed Himself to man, we are able to know and use logic.”[xviii] The laws of logic are a tool that God has given us to use to help others see the evidence for God and to believe on Him. In Titus 1:9 (NIV), the apostle Paul instructs that a believer “must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who opposite it.”

 

What the Bible Says: Gen 6:5, Ps 14:1, Prov 1:7, Is 1:18, Is 55:8-9, Rom 9:19-21, Rom 12:1-2, 1 Cor 2:16, 2 Cor 10:4-5, Col 2:3, 2 Tim 2:13, Titus 1:9, Heb 1:3, Heb 13:8, James 1:17, 1 Pet 3:15, 2 Pet 3:8.

 

by Brian Mariani and others

 

Before commenting, please read the following disclosures.

Any offensive language will automatically disqualify your comment for publication, even if the arguments contained are good. Please comment on the ideas that are presented and not the presenter.  If your comment becomes an ad hominem argument and does not substantially address the issue, your comment will be disqualified as well.  We are looking for real arguments, not fallacious ones, so that we can present and challenge opposing ideas and arguments as they are truly believed by evolutionists.  We do not want to tear down straw men as well as you do not want to be misrepresented. Also, please keep your comments as brief as possible, and if the majority of the comment does not address the current issue, but becomes a red-herring, it will not be posted as well. If your comment does not fall into one of the above restrictions, then your comment will be posted unedited (you may want to check your spelling, grammar, etc.) We thank you for your time and comments.

One thing to keep in mind, each blog is one piece of evidence. Evidence has to then be interpreted, which is not a fact…but evidence strengthening or weakening a specific hypothesis or theory. So there can be multiple ways of interpreting the same evidence. I am not being unscientific, but asking more questions and being skeptical is being more scientific. I am still working on these, so please help with your comments.

 

If you would like to see if an AOI seminar is right for you, or you would like to help the work of Alpha Omega Institute, please visit our website events page or our donate page. Keep up to date with what AOI is doing.  Thanks for your partnership.

 

 

 

[i] J.P. Moreland, What Are the Three Laws of Logic, April 20, 2011, Christian Apologetics, http://christian-apologetics.org/2011/what-are-the-three-laws-of-logic/, The Apologetics Study Bible,

[ii] Laws of logic, About.com, http://atheism.about.com/library/glossary/general/bldef_lawsoflogic.htm, accessed July 24, 2014.

[iii] Yitzhak Melamed and Martin Lin, Principle of Sufficient Reason, September 14, 2010, Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/sufficient-reason/, accessed July 24, 2014.

[iv] Jeff Miller, God and the Laws of Science: The Law of Causality, 2011, Apologetics Press, http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=12&article=3716, accessed July 24, 2014.

[v] Jeff Miller, God and the Laws of Science: The Law of Causality, 2011, Apologetics Press, http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=12&article=3716, accessed July 24, 2014.

[vi] Jason Lisle, Did God Create Logic?, December 7, 2007, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/logic/did-god-create-logic/, accessed July 24, 2014.

[vii] Jason Lisle, Did God Create Logic?, December 7, 2007, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/logic/did-god-create-logic/, accessed July 24, 2014.

[viii] J. Warner Wallace, Is God Real? Examining Atheistic Explanations for the Laws of Logic as “Brute Realities,” March 20, 2014, A Disciple’s Study, Cold Case Christianity, http://llamapacker.wordpress.com/2014/03/page/13/, accessed July 24, 2014.

[ix] Jason Lisle, Did God Create Logic?, December 7, 2007, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/logic/did-god-create-logic/, accessed July 24, 2014.

Can You Have Logic Without Laws?, 2012, Your Origins Matter: Conversations, Institute for Creation Research, http://www.youroriginsmatter.com/conversations/view/can-you-have-logic-without-laws/31, accessed July 24, 2014.

[x] Jason Lisle, Atheism: An Irrational Worldview, October 10, 2007, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/world-religions/atheism/atheism-an-irrational-worldview/, accessed July 24, 2014.

[xi] Darius Viet and Karin Viet, Are the Laws of Logic Really Laws?, November 11, 2011, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/logic/are-the-laws-of-logic-really-laws/, accessed July 24, 2014.

Jason Lisle, Atheism: An Irrational Worldview, October 10, 2007, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/world-religions/atheism/atheism-an-irrational-worldview/, accessed July 24, 2014.

[xii] Jason Lisle, Atheism: An Irrational Worldview, October 10, 2007, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/world-religions/atheism/atheism-an-irrational-worldview/, accessed July 24, 2014.

[xiii] Jason Lisle, The New Answers Book 3, Chapter 13: Is the Christian Worldview Logical?, May 5, 2014, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/logic/is-the-christian-worldview-logical/, accessed July 24, 2014.

[xiv] Jason Lisle, The New Answers Book 3, Chapter 13: Is the Christian Worldview Logical?, May 5, 2014, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/logic/is-the-christian-worldview-logical/, accessed July 24, 2014.

[xv] Jonathan D. Sarfati, Loving God with all your mind: logic and creation, August 1998, Journal of Creation 12(2): 142-151, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/loving-god-with-all-your-mind-logic-and-creation, accessed July 24, 2014.

[xvi]Jay Smith, Alex Chowdhry, Toby Jepson, James Schaeffer, 101 Cleared-up Contradictions in the Bible, http://www.debate.org.uk/debate-topics/apologetic/contrads/, accessed February 28, 2014.

Supposed Bible Contradictions: Scripture Index, Answers in Genesis, http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/contradictions-scripture-index, accessed February 28, 2014.

Eric Lyons, M. Min., The Myth of “Factual Bible Contradictions, Apologetics Press, http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=6&article=40, accessed February 28, 2014.

[xvii] Jonathan D. Sarfati, Loving God with all your mind: logic and creation, August 1998, Journal of Creation 12(2): 142-151, Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/loving-god-with-all-your-mind-logic-and-creation, accessed July 24, 2014.

[xviii] Jason Lisle, Atheism: An Irrational Worldview, October 10, 2007, Answers in Genesis, https://answersingenesis.org/world-religions/atheism/atheism-an-irrational-worldview/, accessed July 24, 2014.

Laws of Logic – Naturalistic/Evolutionary Perspective

 

Introduction:

What is logic and how does it work? We use logic everyday, even when we don’t think about it. “A simple definition of logic is ‘the study of right reason.’”[i] The laws of logic appear to be standardized, set rules for how to think. The laws of logic are important because without them science, and thinking in general, would not even be possible and humans would not able to develop any sort of advancements. Without the laws of logic, one would not even be able to debate or argue, such as we are doing now.

Many believe that humans have evolved and developed and are now able to understand (the development and use) those laws. Yet some believe that God created humans fully developed, intelligent, and with the primary tools of logic from our very creation. What are some of the laws of logic? How did the laws of logic come about? Did their origin come about from an intelligent being like God or could they have come about naturally?

 

Naturalistic/Evolutionary Answer:

Everyone uses the laws of logic to prove their points when teaching, or in arguments and debates. There is no scientific understanding of how they originated. They are philosophical concepts and thus science cannot explain or prove them. Some believe that the laws of logic have existed before the universe and some say that at the beginning of the Universe, at the beginning of time, space, and matter, the laws of logic just happened – just like how the earth just happened to develop where it has – naturally. A world in which the laws of logic do not exist “makes no sense.”[ii]

Roman copy in marble of a Greek bronze  bust of Aristotle by Lysippus, c. 330 BCE.  The alabaster mantle is modern. - photo from Wikipedia commons.

Roman copy in marble of a Greek bronze
bust of Aristotle by Lysippus, c. 330 BCE.
The alabaster mantle is modern. – photo from Wikipedia commons.

Some say that “the categories of logic did not drop from the clouds. These forms have taken shape in the course of the socio-historical development of humankind. They are elementary generalizations of reality, reflected in the minds of men and women.”[iii] The laws of logic are developed and created by man to be able to communicate reasonably with each other. “You don’t need a mind for time to exist, but you do for “September” or “ten o’clock.” And you don’t need a mind for logic to exist, but you do for the laws of logic.[iv] The laws of logic exist in the human mind because of human intelligence. “The universe isn’t subject to any laws of logic. The universe merely exists.”[v] Some also suggest that the laws of logic have developed (or merely exist) due to the sophisticated chemical make-up of the evolved human brain. Those with higher levels and abilities of logic and reasoning may even be more evolved.

A law of logic is “not a physical thing. But it is not a non-physical thing either. It is not an entity of any sort. It is a rule that can be expressed in the form of a hypothetical imperative: “If you have ‘if p, then q,’ and you have ‘p,’ then conclude q.” There is nothing at all mysterious, transcendent, or otherworldly about such a rule. It is just an instruction, an effective procedure for getting a valid inference from the given premises.” Materialistic atheists are not “illicitly reifying the rules of inference, turning them into transcendent entities.”[vi]

“The law of non-contradiction states that for any proposition p, ~(p & ~p), that is, it is not the case that both p and not-p. Do we need a transcendent ground or supernatural basis to justify or validate this rule? No, all we need is to recognize the futility of rejecting it…The law of non-contradiction is not an abstract, ideal entity. It is simply a rule we have to follow if we are to communicate anything at all.”[vii]

“Even odder is [the] claim that rational reasoning would be impossible without the biblical God. Couldn’t Allah be the eternal ground of logic? Why not Platonic ideas? Why not the Flying Spaghetti Monster?”[viii]

Some say that “the laws of logic actually require no explanation. Have you ever asked a Christian to explain why God exists? You probably received an answer that God’s existence requires no external explanation. God exists necessarily…Things that exist contingently require an explanation of their existence. Things that exist necessarily do not…The laws of logic are uncreated and exist necessarily. They could not have been otherwise. Therefore, the argument goes as follows:

  1. The laws of logic are necessary.
  2. Things that exist necessarily do not require an explanation of their existence.
  3. Therefore, any worldview that recognizes this adequately accounts for the laws of logic.”[ix]

Another way to say this is the Christian’s “stopping point [‘God did it.’ or ‘God just exists.’] is based on nothing. It has no evidence to support it. Contrast that with the naturalists’ logical and mathematical axioms. Unlike God, these aren’t taken on faith. They’re tested continually. Why would we want to ground the one that is strongly confirmed with evidence (logic) with the one that isn’t (God)? Why demand something solid to hold up the fundamental axioms but then use faith to hold up God?”[x]

“I’ll admit that “that’s just the way it is” isn’t completely satisfying, but “God did it” resolves nothing. The apologist won’t tell us why or how God exists; he just exists. This informs us as much as “fairies did it.” But if the Christian can have a fundamental assumption about reality (God), so can the naturalist (natural axioms)…But “God did it” is simply a repackaging of “I don’t know.” It tells us nothing new. I’m no smarter after hearing “God did it” than before. How did God do it? Why did God do it?”[xi]

Creationists claim that it is logical to think that things are so intricate that they necessitate a designer. “When falling sand in an hourglass forms a cone, does that require a supernatural cone maker? When a river changes course as it meanders over a flat valley, does that demand a river designer? When there is an earthquake, must the timing and placement of that be supernaturally ordained? No, there natural explanations for all these things.”[xii]

The Christian worldview is illogical in that Christians, with no evidence, have blind faith in a fairy-tale being, different in the Old Testament and in the New Testament, who performs miracles outside of the known laws of science. Many of the miracles may have actually been real scientific phenomena that these ancient people didn’t understand and therefore resorted to a god-figure or rather a Trinitarian god-figure, which also breaks the law of non-contradiction. How can God be three yet also be only one? All of these things, not to mention all of the contradictions within the Bible, clearly show that Christianity is illogical.

If God created the laws of logic, then he would have had to act illogically before he created them or possibly God is bound to the laws of logic and thus God is limited by these concepts. Can God violate the laws of logic? Whether yes or no, in this case, as well, either God is illogical or is limited. These are reasons why the idea of God does not make sense. The claim that “God did it” is simply asserted as truth without any evidence to back it up. “God is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance.”[xiii]

 

by Brian Mariani and others

 

Is the above correct? Do you evolutionists agree with this position? I have tried to write it as you believe it. Do you have any disagreements or concerns or additions?

 

Before commenting, please read the following disclosures.

Any offensive language will automatically disqualify your comment for publication, even if the arguments contained are good. Please comment on the ideas that are presented and not the presenter.  If your comment becomes an ad hominem argument and does not substantially address the issue, your comment will be disqualified as well.  We are looking for real arguments, not fallacious ones, so that we can present and challenge opposing ideas and arguments as they are truly believed by evolutionists.  We do not want to tear down straw men as well as you do not want to be misrepresented. Also, please keep your comments as brief as possible, and if the majority of the comment does not address the current issue, but becomes a red-herring, it will not be posted as well. If your comment does not fall into one of the above restrictions, then your comment will be posted unedited (you may want to check your spelling, grammar, etc.) We thank you for your time and comments.

One thing to keep in mind, each blog is one piece of evidence. Evidence has to then be interpreted, which is not a fact…but evidence strengthening or weakening a specific hypothesis or theory. So there can be multiple ways of interpreting the same evidence. I am not being unscientific, but asking more questions and being skeptical is being more scientific. I am still working on these, so please help with your comments.

If you would like to see if an AOI seminar is right for you, or you would like to help the work of Alpha Omega Institute, please visit our website events page or our donate page. Keep up to date with what AOI is doing.  Thanks for your partnership.

 

[i] Bill Pratt, Is God Subject to Logic?, September 13, 2010, Tough Questions Answered, http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2010/09/13/is-god-subject-to-logic/, accessed July 24, 2014.

[ii] Michael Martin, Does Logic Presuppose the Existence of the Christian God?, 2000, The Secular Web, http://infidels.org/library/modern/michael_martin/logic.html, accessed July 24, 2014.

[iii] Spacebuddha, Formal Logic and Dialectics, July 26, 2006, The Rational Response Squad, http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/philosophy_and_psychology_with_chaoslord_and_todangst/9293, http://www.marxist.com/science-old/logicanddialectics.html, accessed July 24, 2014.

[iv] Bob Seidensticker, A Dozen Responses to the Transcendental Argument for God (2 of 3), December 4, 2013, Pantheos, http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2013/12/a-dozen-responses-to-the-transcendental-argument-for-god-2-of-3/, accessed July 24, 2014.

[v] The Laws of Classical Logic, October 6, 2012, http://editthis.info/logic/The_Laws_of_Classical_Logic, accessed July 24, 2014.

[vi] Keith Parsons, God and the “Laws of Logic”, November 13, 2007, Pantheos, http://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2007/11/13/god-and-the-laws-of-logic/, accessed July 24, 2014.

[vii] Keith Parsons, God and the “Laws of Logic”, November 13, 2007, Pantheos, http://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2007/11/13/god-and-the-laws-of-logic/, accessed July 24, 2014.

[viii] Keith Parsons, God and the “Laws of Logic”, November 13, 2007, Pantheos, http://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2007/11/13/god-and-the-laws-of-logic/, accessed July 24, 2014.

[ix] Mike, Explaining Logic, September 30, 2011, Foxhole Atheism, http://foxholeatheism.com/explaining-logic/, accessed July 24, 2014.

[x] Bob Seidensticker, A Dozen Responses to the Transcendental Argument for God (2 of 3), December 4, 2013, Pantheos, http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2013/12/a-dozen-responses-to-the-transcendental-argument-for-god-2-of-3/, accessed July 24, 2014.

[xi] Bob Seidensticker, A Dozen Responses to the Transcendental Argument for God (2 of 3), December 4, 2013, Pantheos, http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2013/12/a-dozen-responses-to-the-transcendental-argument-for-god-2-of-3/, accessed July 24, 2014.

Bob Seidensticker, A Dozen Responses to the Transcendental Argument for God (3 of 3), December 4, 2013, Pantheos, http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2013/12/a-dozen-responses-to-the-transcendental-argument-for-god-3-of-3/, accessed July 24, 2014.

[xii] Bob Seidensticker, A Dozen Responses to the Transcendental Argument for God (3 of 3), December 4, 2013, Pantheos, http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2013/12/a-dozen-responses-to-the-transcendental-argument-for-god-3-of-3/, accessed July 24, 2014.

[xiii] Bob Seidensticker, Do Atheists Borrow From the Christian Worldview?, April 22, 2013, Pantheos, http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2013/04/do-atheists-borrow-from-the-christian-worldview/, accessed July 24, 2014.

Interview Questions for Young Creation Evangelists

 

One of our goals at AOI is to not only spread the gospel as we teach the creation message, but also to train and equip others to go and do the same. We want to encourage those who God is calling to teach creation, whether formally or informally, and when possible, help them connect with local Creation teaching ministries – or even start one of their own!

With that in mind, we would like to share this interview with California high school senior Caleb. Caleb is the founder of Foundations Creation Club (https://www.facebook.com/FoundationsCreationClub) and is an example of how young people (and older ones as well!) can impact their community for the Lord using the creation message. If you or someone you know is involved in some type of creation ministry, be it full-time or simply actively using it as a tool to share the gospel, we’d love to hear about it! Email us at: traininginstitute@discovercreation.org

Maybe we’ll share an interview with you as well!

Foundations Creation Club BannerAimee: Will you tell us a bit about yourself? 

Caleb: I am in my senior year in high school and have been homeschooled since 6th grade. I have had the blessing of being a Boy Scout for the last 5 years, concluding with the achievement of the rank of Eagle Scout. I currently serve as a leader in our local Christian-homeschool Trail Life USA Troop (Trail Life is the Christian alternative to Boy Scouts). For the last 2 years, I have served as a leader in our church’s AWANA program. I have been interested in science since I was a young boy and dreamed of being a scientist, specifically a paleontologist or geologist. I still haven’t given up that dream, but I’ll tell you more about that later. ;) I am currently working alongside some other creationists in our area in a ministry called Genesis Apologetics (www.genesisapologetics.com) to reach our community with this vital creation information.

Aimee: Why do you feel that belief in creation is important?

Caleb: In discussions with youth pastors, I have learned about the strategy being used to reach today’s youth is to “reach them where they’re at”. This is a good strategy, but I fear that most youth ministers and pastors don’t know where the young people in their congregation are “at”. On the 5 days of the school/work week, “churched” young people are being indoctrinated in a worldview that completely conflicts with what they are hearing on Sunday morning. “Bible stories” like Adam and Eve, Noah and the Ark, and the Tower of Babel are treated as mere superstition while “science facts” like evolution and millions of years are trumpeted as being the only “rational” explanation for our origins. On the one day of the week that Christian leaders have the ability to speak the truth into the lives of their youth, it is important that they equip them with answers to the claims they are hearing during the rest of the week. If we are to see this generation accept the truth of Scripture, this an issue that has to be dealt with. After all, if you can’t trust the first 11 chapters of the Book, why should you trust the rest? This is where ministries like ours come into play.

Aimee: How long have you believed in creation over evolution? Was there some incident or discovery that you made that caused you to change your mind, or have you always believed it?

Caleb: For about 7 years. For the first 10 years of my life, all I heard was evolution and millions of years. I didn’t even know biblical creation was an option. I knew that the Bible taught a six-day creation, Adam and Eve, Noah’s Flood, and a young earth, but science books contradicted these things by saying that earth has been around for billions of years and that dinosaurs died out millions of years ago. My response was one of confusion and apathy towards the Scriptures. It wasn’t until our family considered homeschooling that we were introduced to the biblical view of origins by a friend. We were loaned a creation book and volume 1 of the Jonathan Park radio adventure series, which helped us to understand what the Bible had to say about dinosaurs and fossils. Later, we attended a conference with Ron Carlson from Christian Ministries International, where he spoke on evolution and the age of the earth. This really helped our family to see the Bible in a new and refreshing light. For me, the Bible became more than a book of morals and stories; it became true history.

Aimee: Why did you start this creation ministry? What are your goals in the ministry? 

Caleb: The two verses that our ministry is built on (you could say that they are my “life verses”) are Psalm 11:3, “If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?” and 2 Corinthians 10:4-5, “For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.” Genesis is the foundational book of the Bible, the history upon which every doctrine of Scripture directly or indirectly rests. But this history is being attacked by the onslaught of evolutionary teaching in public schools, museums, and in pop culture. What are we to do? We must stand on Scripture and be able to give an answer to these claims and challenges to God’s Word, while filtering everything through the lens of a biblical worldview. This is why our ministry exists: to equip believers with the tools and information to effectively defend their faith in God and His Word.

Aimee: There are many creation evangelism efforts popping up all over the country right now. What do you think is an effective (and possibly new) way of making an impact? Please explain how you think it can go from an idea to practical application. (We absolutely don’t want to steal your ideas and we don’t have to make this public if you are worried about others stealing your idea, but we want to help you achieve and accomplish your “big” ideas!)

 

Caleb: This is a great thing! I am extremely excited to hear about smaller ministries lead by local families and congregations. Ultimately, this is the way the battle over origins must be won. Ministries like Answers in Genesis and Institute for Creation Research are great at equipping the saints, but it’s ultimately up to local ministries to make sure that these resources are getting into the hands of believers across the nation. There are many ways of doing this. One way is to ask ministries like the ones I just mentioned to come and give presentations at local churches. Sometimes there is a cost for hosting ministries like these, but if you can get people on your side who are willing to donate or help out, it is worth it. Another way is to give out free materials, like ICR’s Acts & Facts newsletter (though, I admit, it is a bit hefty for those not familiar with creation science) or Genesis Apologetics’ Fast Facts sheets (http://genesisapologetics.com/creation-vs-evolution-fast-facts/). Another way is to hold regular meetings, where you have a speaker from your area speak, or you can show a video if there are no speakers in your area. Try hard to get pastors and youth leaders in your area on board.

 

Aimee: What do you plan to do after graduating high school? Do you plan to continue in formal creation ministry?

 

Caleb: Absolutely! I am planning to go to college to earn an undergraduate degree in geology (Lord willing!), then pursue a graduate degree in the same (or a similar) field. Ultimately, I would like to work for one of the major creation research institutes or ministries, like AiG or ICR, as a speaker, writer, and research scientist.

 

Aimee: What advice do you have for other young people who want to do active ministry, whether it be creation focused or otherwise?

 

Caleb: Ministry has to be preceded by a close, personal relationship with Jesus. Part of this means getting into His Word (remember that Jesus’ words aren’t just the red letters!). This can be challenging sometimes, as it must be something that you faithfully commit yourself to. This will fuel you and equip you for the battle you will be getting into. When you focus on reading and meditating on the Scriptures, you will grow. Another thing to remember (this is something I have to constantly remind myself of) is that God doesn’t need you. This is clearly seen in the book of Esther, where Mordecai explains to Esther that even if she didn’t take a stand for her people, He could just as easily raise up someone else to do the job. But God wants you. This is a humbling thought that should lead you praise God for His amazing grace and providence.

 

 

 

By Aimee Mariani

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